Author Topic: Makey oviv, vomays  (Read 6568 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 05:09:13 AM »
Where do you get this info about needing instant death in order to go to golus.

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 08:55:34 AM »
I believe the bottom of bais amud bais maybe continuing to gimmel amud alef in Yevamos
I made a mistake...the gemara in Yevamos on 32a at about five lines up, says that you get the chumer death penalty.

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 08:58:38 AM »
Bas cohen shezinsa gets serifa, even though eishes ish gets cheneck (i think)

anyway, how would you kill him/her twice?
correct. But whats does that matter? she was "michalel bais avihuh", he wasn't, so she gets burnt, while he just was "over" on "eishes ish" and gets strangulation.

Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 09:05:27 AM »
More recently in Daf Hayomi the Gemara discusses the question of a son going to golus for killing his father. While the Gemara ends up saying the "Kler" is about the chiyuv golus for being m'chabel ones father b'shogeg, the principles found in the hava amina & discussed in Rishonim & Achronim remain true....
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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2010, 09:10:27 AM »
remain true... "feer ooss" please.

Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2010, 09:26:24 AM »
I don't have a gemara in front of me but I believe the gemara is 8b in makkos & rashi shtels tzu the mishna in sanhedrin (82a maybe? its early 80's definately amud aleph top of page) that 2 misas is nidon b'chamura. IIRC that is a din of since you could only kill a guy once he gets the one that's more chamur. Kam lei is when you have misa and malkus etc. when they are 2 different classes of oinshim. but for example if someone does a maaseh that carries with it many malkiyos he gets them all. (see later in makkos) so too by misa, were it not for the fact that you can't kill a dead guy he would get both...
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Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2010, 09:31:44 AM »
Just to make myself clear, the fact that there is a din of nidon b'chamura and this is independent of the universal din of kum lei, is a proof that there is no p'tur of kum lei here, just the practical problem...
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Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2010, 09:35:48 AM »
I made a mistake...the gemara in Yevamos on 32a at about five lines up, says that you get the chumer death penalty.
I don't have a gemara in front of me but I believe the gemara is 8b in makkos & rashi shtels tzu the mishna in sanhedrin (82a maybe? its early 80's definately amud aleph top of page) that 2 misas is nidon b'chamura. IIRC that is a din of since you could only kill a guy once he gets the one that's more chamur. Kam lei is when you have misa and malkus etc. when they are 2 different classes of oinshim. but for example if someone does a maaseh that carries with it many malkiyos he gets them all. (see later in makkos) so too by misa, were it not for the fact that you can't kill a dead guy he would get both...
the gemara in Yevamos is also nidon b`chumrah

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2010, 10:03:20 AM »
the gemara in Yevamos is also nidon b`chumrah

Yes, if you can only give one misa (which is usually the case), you will give the more severe one.

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2010, 10:05:38 AM »
Just to make myself clear, the fact that there is a din of nidon b'chamura and this is independent of the universal din of kum lei, is a proof that there is no p'tur of kum lei here, just the practical problem...

right kom lay miderabe minay, you would say only I believe by misa, vs makkos or money, not vs a lower ranked misa.

So, according to you, if we hold that the misa of hereg is more chomur then make oviv (chenek), but he hit bemayzid with hasro'o, but killed beshoygeg, golus won't help??

Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2010, 10:14:10 AM »
I don't understand your question. he's going to get killed for hitting his father b'meizid, and golus won't help because the possuk b'vli daas is prat l'miskavein (or another drosho acc to other shittos) that you are only chayav golus if you did a maaseh that's a total shogeg. (all these are mefurashe gemoros in eilu hein hagoilin.)
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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2010, 10:16:54 AM »
so you say that both can impossibly combine.

stepping on purpose on someones toe to hurt him, and you DO step on his toe, and it kills the person, there is no golus?

Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 10:34:25 AM »
That's right. Two of the cases the Gemara brings are a guy who aims to kill a behaima and misfires & hits & kills a person doesn't go to golus & a person who thinks he's shooting at a behaima but its really a person. Even though these cases aren't EXACTLY what your case is, the gemoro also says that oimer muttar doesn't go to golus & only derech yerida goes to golus etc. etc.

& your case of trying to hurt someone & really killing him, one can wonder if it has a din of a sonei (since you see he tried to hurt him) who never gets golus because we say he was maizid unless its the type of maiseh that is clear it was a total accident. (tosfos says like if he fell off a roof onto him, because he put his own life in danger)
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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 11:42:30 AM »
That's right. Two of the cases the Gemara brings are a guy who aims to kill a behaima and misfires & hits & kills a person doesn't go to golus & a person who thinks he's shooting at a behaima but its really a person. Even though these cases aren't EXACTLY what your case is, the gemoro also says that oimer muttar doesn't go to golus & only derech yerida goes to golus etc. etc.

& your case of trying to hurt someone & really killing him, one can wonder if it has a din of a sonei (since you see he tried to hurt him) who never gets golus because we say he was maizid unless its the type of maiseh that is clear it was a total accident. (tosfos says like if he fell off a roof onto him, because he put his own life in danger)

I'm sure you've slapped a guy on the back already.

Well it was bad news, the father didn't tell his son that he just got operated, and he still had stitches which opened up again...........

Offline yeshivaman

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2010, 11:49:32 AM »
That's a real imaginative case, a hakka'ah that doesn't have the ability to kill, but the person dies from it.... I think that would be oines but I need to do a bit more research.
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