Author Topic: Makey oviv, vomays  (Read 6562 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2010, 12:21:30 PM »
That's a real imaginative case, a hakka'ah that doesn't have the ability to kill, but the person dies from it.... I think that would be oines but I need to do a bit more research.

its a gemoro in sanhedrin, something like "ayn kday lehargoi..."


Offline Chaikel

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2010, 12:29:58 PM »
correct. But whats does that matter? she was "michalel bais avihuh", he wasn't, so she gets burnt, while he just was "over" on "eishes ish" and gets strangulation.
She is also an eishes ish. Eishes ish get cheneck
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Offline Charles The Govenor

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2010, 01:26:25 PM »
The only way that he goes too galus is if you want too say it is considered a masseh misah.
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2010, 01:29:54 PM »
The only way that he goes too galus is if you want too say it is considered a masseh misah.

this masseh misah is killing me...

Offline Charles The Govenor

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2010, 01:41:32 PM »
Well that is the only way that I could agree with you is in that case,even though I still think that he gets meesah.
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2010, 01:43:13 PM »
well what does the jury say?  (dd members)

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2010, 03:00:09 PM »
She is also an eishes ish. Eishes ish get cheneck
not nec. in this case, its a gizaras hakusuv that she gets sreifah, not chenek.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2010, 03:08:49 PM »
It's bas kohen shezinsa. She has to be married.
Don't you know the case?
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Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2010, 03:16:22 PM »
It's bas kohen shezinsa. She has to be married.
Don't you know the case?
yes, and the Torah says she gets burnt.
This isn't a case of two punishments, like an eishes ish (chenek) who is also his mother-in-law (burnt).
This is a case that the Torah says that you get a certain punishment, even though one might have thought to give a lesser one; the Torah ramped it up to burning, much like naarah hamurasa that gets stoned, not chenek.
Its a simple chiluk, and therefore it has no bearing on the question in mind- like the case of the married shviger.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2010, 03:20:14 PM »
MeHaicha Taisi to look at it like that. Maybe the torah just added another oinesh. Who says it "Ramped it up"
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Offline YOSEF

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2010, 03:22:12 PM »
MeHaicha Taisi to look at it like that. Maybe the torah just added another oinesh. Who says it "Ramped it up"
you want to prove that the case is similar, so you go ahead and prove.  I was just saying, that it COULD be that that is the chiluk.  (going to mincha, so seder is over for now)

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2010, 08:46:19 PM »
Superflyer, you caught me off guard. I was only up to daf vav when you posted this, so im kind of out of this conversation.
 BTW, in the subject tile, I would've spelled it v'mais, to make it easier. (until I clicked in, I had no clue what you were referring to.

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2010, 05:55:09 AM »
In english there is no rule as to what sounds like what; I spell 'indeed' in yiddish as 'takke', and others would spell it 'tukka'...

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Re: Makey oviv, vomays
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2010, 05:56:11 AM »
I got the following message:

Regarding your first point: "kim lei" for two death penalties; there definitely is such a concept. See the mishna and g'mara in Sanhedrin 81a. However, you must realize that here it's not a true "kim lei". A true "kim lei" is where it would have theoretically been possible to give BOTH penalties (eg misah and mamon) and the Torah tells us, without any outside s'vara, that we should only do one. "Kdei rish'aso" says the Torah; "mishum risha achas ata m'chayvo etc". Here however; it would not have been possible to do both, even had the Torah not said so. I mean, you can't kill somebody twice! So with s'vara alone, we would have known that he won't get both. Therefore the p'tur for the second misah is not really "kim le". And the fact that, of the two, we give him the more chamur one is also a  s'vara. He did both aveiros, he is chayav both, he has as much an actual chiyuv for the chamur death penalty as he does for the more kal one, so why should he not get the most chamur? But the p'tur from the second death penalty is not really "kim lei". Do you understand what I'm saying? (For a similar idea, see the machlokes between the Pnei Yehoshua and the Avnei Milu'im in Kiddushin regarding the reason that kiddushin won't work on a married woman. Is it because she is already married, so there's no room for an additional kiddushin be chal, or is it because she's an erva, and kiddushin isn't chal on any of the arayos.)

Regarding your second point. There is no such thing as galus paturing for misah. Have a good look at the sugya of "ha'av goleh al yedei haben" in Makkos 8b. There the g'mara entertains the possibility that galus wouldn't work for killings ones father, since there is a double penalty (sayif and chenek) and the more chamur acc to R' Shimon is chenek, and maybe galus doesn't work for a shogeg of chenek. But that's about a shogeg where there is no misah. But in a case of misah there is absolutely no way that galus can patur. It's a pasuk in the torah. "V'lo sikchu kofer etc.".