NHL Master Thread

[CS91]

Kinda like how he was an idiot for chirping "all series long, all series long!" And then going a 4 game pointless streak.

Do you really think that he was the only one to say something along these lines all series? It's called trash talk, and anyone who has ever played organized sports knows that everyone does this.

[skyguy918]

I like fun so lets have some. How many game 7 Cup finals has he won? So if I understand correctly if they would of made it to game 7 last year he would have won it? Maybe someone should have let him known that when you suck in first five games you won't make it to game seven. 

What is it exactly that you're trying to say? I feel like there's an underlying opinion/statement in your comments these last few pages that you haven't actually articulated. I don't mean with regard to the Lundqvist and some of these stats specifically.

Is it that a goalie can't be great if they never won the cup? That Lundqvist is not a great goalie? That you don't need good goaltending to win the cup?

[Yehuda57]

Do you really think that he was the only one to say something along these lines all series? It's called trash talk, and anyone who has ever played organized sports knows that everyone does this.

One of my favorites:

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Lets make this really simple. He is good but goalies are overrated. Defense is the most important thing not goalies. Is there any goalie in history that could have stopped the Rangers first goal? No way. Their are plenty of defensives that would have never allow that shot to be taken.

[Yehuda57]

What is it exactly that you're trying to say? I feel like there's an underlying opinion/statement in your comments these last few pages that you haven't actually articulated. I don't mean with regard to the Lundqvist and some of these stats specifically.

Is it that a goalie can't be great if they never won the cup? That Lundqvist is not a great goalie? That you don't need good goaltending to win the cup?

Hockey is a team sport - a win or loss would not be indicative of how good any one individual player is.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

That you don't need good goaltending to win the cup?

The defense will make or brake a goalie.

[yakrot]

The defense will make or brake a goalie.

Brake?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Brake?

Like on a car. 

[Ergel]

Is there any goalie in history that could have stopped the Rangers first goal? No way.

I think there is one who I wouldn't have been shocked if he made the save

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I think there is one who I wouldn't have been shocked if he made the save

Only possible way to make that stop is if it was a bad shot and it wasn't. It was the fault of the defense not the goalie's. Now on Ovi's goal that is a different story. Average stop for a goalie but we know what happened.

[Ergel]

Only possible way to make that stop is if it was a bad shot and it wasn't. It was the fault of the defense not the goalie's. Now on Ovi's goal that is a different story. Average stop for a goalie but we know what happened.

I wouldn't have expected Hasek to make the save, but he is the one goalie in history who I believe would have been capable of making it

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I wouldn't have expected Hasek to make the save, but he is the one goalie in history who I believe would have been capable of making it

I think I know that name. I wonder which team he stared with. 

[yuneeq]

Again goalies don't guarantee you wins.
But a great goalie can steal games for you and a great l forward can't.

A great goalie can ensure that you will have a very very good chance to win.
And lundqvist has done exactly that. Letting in only 6 goals in 7 game 7s.

Dont compare the weak goalies in the west to the great goalies of the East.
Dubnyk is a subpar goalie who got hot and was overworked.
He didn't play superb in either round.

Rinne is the only other goalie who could've made a difference, and he was cold long before the playoffs started.

The east had Anderson, Price, Holtby, Fleury and Lundqvist all playing at the top of their games.
Put them on the Wild or Predators this years and the series would've been longer.

[skyguy918]

Lets make this really simple. He is good but goalies are overrated. Defense is the most important thing not goalies. Is there any goalie in history that could have stopped the Rangers first goal? No way. Their are plenty of defensives that would have never allow that shot to be taken.

See, wasn't that easier than all this passive-aggressive stuff? Now we can discuss the actual point instead of brushing up against the real point of contention via silly side arguments.

I would say goalies are generally overrated, but they're still the most important component of any team's defense. A great defense can cover up shoddy goaltending, and a great goalie can bail out a shoddy defense - it goes both ways sometimes.

Let's put it this way. If you were building a franchise from scratch and had first pick on defensive players (say they did forwards separately already), would you not pick the best goaltender first over the best individual defenseman?

[Malachi]

Again goalies don't guarantee you wins.
But a great goalie can steal games for you and a great l forward can't.

A great goalie can ensure that you will have a very very good chance to win.
And lundqvist has done exactly that. Letting in only 6 goals in 7 game 7s.

Dont compare the weak goalies in the west to the great goalies of the East.
Dubnyk is a subpar goalie who got hot and was overworked.
He didn't play superb in either round.

Rinne is the only other goalie who could've made a difference, and he was cold long before the playoffs started.

The east had Anderson, Price, Holtby, Fleury and Lundqvist all playing at the top of their games.
Put them on the Wild or Predators this years and the series would've been longer.

Price wasn't at the top of his game except for game six against Ottawa

[ChaimMoskowitz]

See, wasn't that easier than all this passive-aggressive stuff? Now we can discuss the actual point instead of brushing up against the real point of contention via silly side arguments.

I would say goalies are generally overrated, but they're still the most important component of any team's defense. A great defense can cover up shoddy goaltending, and a great goalie can bail out a shoddy defense - it goes both ways sometimes.

Let's put it this way. If you were building a franchise from scratch and had first pick on defensive players (say they did forwards separately already), would you not pick the best goaltender first over the best individual defenseman?

This is JS so why not have fun and be evasive? One pick I would go with the goalie but if I could trade the top pick for two picks a would go with two defensive players. Something to look at is when backup goalies come in to play. If they play at the same level as the starter who do you think is responsible for that?

[skyguy918]

This is JS so why not have fun and be evasive? One pick I would go with the goalie but if I could trade the top pick for two picks a would go with two defensive players. Something to look at is when backup goalies come in to play. If they play at the same level as the starter who do you think is responsible for that?

Yeah, so it would obviously depend on the specific players, but I agree that it could often be the smart move if available, which in term says a lot about the relative value of goalies and defenseman. I would add that that goalies have the advantage of affecting the entire game, while everyone else is on for only so many shifts per game. Also, when you talk about non-goalie defense, it's not just about how good each defenseman is individually. It's also about how they play together with their linesmen and how defense minded the forwards are.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Yeah, so it would obviously depend on the specific players, but I agree that it could often be the smart move if available, which in term says a lot about the relative value of goalies and defenseman. I would add that that goalies have the advantage of affecting the entire game, while everyone else is on for only so many shifts per game. Also, when you talk about non-goalie defense, it's not just about how good each defenseman is individually. It's also about how they play together with their linesmen and how defense minded the forwards are.

If you are going one player against one player then yes the goalie is more important than a single defensemen. As you just pointed out that a defense has many parts. How about you answer a question? 

The Hawks allowed the least amount of goals this year. They have been consistently ranked near the top for the last few years. What is the main reason for this? The play of their goalies or the play of their defense?

[yuneeq]

Price wasn't at the top of his game except for game six against Ottawa

True but he was playing lights out this year.
And even his non-lights out play in the playoffs was still better than all the goalies in the West this year.

[skyguy918]

If you are going one player against one player then yes the goalie is more important than a single defensemen. As you just pointed out that a defense has many parts. How about you answer a question? 

The Hawks allowed the least amount of goals this year. They have been consistently ranked near the top for the last few years. What is the main reason for this? The play of their goalies or the play of their defense?

The defense. But that's the Hawks. It doesn't mean that equation plays out in that way for every team every year.

I think we can agree that on average, throughout a season or a series, the goalie has a greater effect on the final outcome - for better or for worse - that any other single player. Conversely, if you had to rank the 3 areas of the game (offense, defense, goaltending) in total effect on the outcome, goaltending is probably not the largest effect in the greatest number of games. But it's a lot closer than the previous example.