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« Last edited by jj1000 on May 17, 2017, 10:02:20 AM »

Author Topic: NHL Master Thread  (Read 426951 times)

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2900 on: January 20, 2020, 12:19:32 PM »

Offline dpk4588

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2901 on: January 20, 2020, 12:21:57 PM »
Was asking who you thought has had a better career/better player?
That couldn't have been less clear.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2902 on: January 20, 2020, 12:23:11 PM »
That couldn't have been less clear.

Itís a reference to the most basic question among hawks fans. Didnít think I needed to elaborate.

Offline dpk4588

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2903 on: January 20, 2020, 12:37:34 PM »
Itís a reference to the most basic question among hawks fans. Didnít think I needed to elaborate.
I don't know how many people here are Hawks fans, but it wasn't clear to me (and apparently not to CV who felt the need to post an article about Kane).

In terms of your actual question, I think (based purely on numbers) it's Kane. He's got more goals & points per game and Hockey Reference has this PS (Point Share) where Kane edges Towes slightly. Kane also has more black ink. The only stat that Towes beats Kane in is Plus/Minus which (I've heard on a number of broadcasts) many people say doesn't mean much because it doesn't really indicate if the player had any effect on the goal for or against.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2904 on: January 20, 2020, 01:05:57 PM »
I must say I was confused. Kane has had a better career. Now if you ask who was most instrumental in the 3 SC's that would be a hard one.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2905 on: January 20, 2020, 01:12:29 PM »
The only stat that Towes beats Kane in is Plus/Minus which (I've heard on a number of broadcasts) many people say doesn't mean much because it doesn't really indicate if the player had any effect on the goal for or against.
If this situation I think it does matter. Toews plays both ways and is always killing penalties. Kane is never on the PK.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2906 on: January 20, 2020, 01:52:02 PM »
Was asking who you thought has had a better career/better player?

Kane and it's not even close.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2907 on: January 20, 2020, 02:02:56 PM »
Kane and it's not even close.
There is more to it than just numbers.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2908 on: January 20, 2020, 02:19:01 PM »
There is more to it than just numbers.

Exactly

Offline dpk4588

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2909 on: January 20, 2020, 02:36:42 PM »
There is more to it than just numbers.
Such as?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2910 on: January 20, 2020, 03:50:06 PM »
Such as?

I know this sounds cliche, But Toews has always prioritized winning over stats. Kane has higher highs and lower lows, Toews has been more consistent. They are both great, and I don't know that answer. I kind of feel like there is some Kane bias because he is the American, But i also recognize that when at his best, he is/was in a league of his own.

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2911 on: January 20, 2020, 03:58:43 PM »
Such as?
Leadership, playing defense, going to the front of the net, penalty kill, should I go on?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2912 on: January 20, 2020, 04:28:28 PM »
Leadership, playing defense, going to the front of the net, penalty kill, should I go on?
First of all, I'm not say that stats are the only thing that matter, I was just asking what else you thought goes into it.

I'm going to try and address each of your points one at a time.

Leadership - Leadership is something a lot of people have an issue with. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. Are you saying that a player can't be great if they don't play a leadership role? I'm not sure I can accept that. I'd say if you were comparing two players who are, all else equal, you could say that leadership could put one on top, but as it's own point on grading a player I'm not sure how much weight it should carry.

Defense - The only way I can think of to measure defense would be +/- and blocked shots. For reasons I stated earlier I'm not sure of the validity of +/- and blocked shots isn't something I see tracked on either NHL.com or hockey reference so I have no way of judging defense without watching tons of Hawks games (which I don't regularly). So I do agree that defense is important in terms of measuring a player's skill and career, I just don't have a good way to measure it.

Going to the front of the net - I don't see how that's a measure of what makes one player better than another. Not everyone produces by being a net front presence. Also in terms of going to the front of the net, size often plays a role in that. I'm not gonna say that the 4" and 30 lbs Towes has on Kane makes it easier for him to play in front of the net, but it can be a contributing factor, or that's just Towes game and not Kane's.

PK - I'm honestly not sure what makes certain players good on the PK, its probably their defensive skills or if they're good on faceoffs (particularly if they're especially good in the D-Zone), but that seems to overlap with the defense argument above.

I know this sounds cliche, But Toews has always prioritized winning over stats. Kane has higher highs and lower lows, Toews has been more consistent. They are both great, and I don't know that answer. I kind of feel like there is some Kane bias because he is the American, But i also recognize that when at his best, he is/was in a league of his own.
I'm not sure about Towes's priorities, that's just might be something I don't know about him vs Kane because I don't follow either of them that closely, but unless that's something that's specifically come out in the media, I don't think that's something one can objectively say. The highs and lows argument is an interesting one and I'm not sure there is an answer as to what's better. As for there being an American bias for Kane, I'm not sure that exists (but I can only speak from my personal experience), I've never felt it.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2913 on: January 20, 2020, 04:39:51 PM »
Are you saying that a player can't be great if they don't play a leadership role?
Nope.
Lets get one thing straight. Kane is great player. His greatness comes from his offensive skills which includes his unbelievable passing skills.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2914 on: January 20, 2020, 04:45:51 PM »
There is more to it than just numbers.

I made my statement while taking that into consideration.
Maybe at one point they were considered similarly great in different ways but Kane absolutely pulled past him the past few years.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2915 on: January 20, 2020, 04:47:31 PM »
Finally see some NHL talk. Got so excited. Then it turns out just a few hawk fans fighting over their alte k...ers

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2916 on: January 20, 2020, 04:49:55 PM »
Finally see some NHL talk. Got so excited. Then it turns out just a few hawk fans fighting over their alte k...ers
No fight at all.
Now if you want to start a fight ask if it is time to trade both of them and start rebuilding?  :)
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2917 on: January 20, 2020, 04:50:46 PM »
I know this sounds cliche, But Toews has always prioritized winning over stats.

Cliche is an understatement.
Quote
Kane has higher highs and lower lows, Toews has been more consistent.

Actually, Kane has higher highs, and higher lows. Granted I don't watch Kane play every day but I've yet to see complaints about him disappearing for long stretches or being inconsistent. His yearly numbers throughout his career attest to that. So does the 26 game point streak.
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Offline dpk4588

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2918 on: January 20, 2020, 04:53:43 PM »
Nope.
Lets get one thing straight. Kane is great player. His greatness comes from his offensive skills which includes his unbelievable passing skills.
Just to be clear, you're saying Kane is lacking in the other attributes that make a player great?

Finally see some NHL talk. Got so excited. Then it turns out just a few hawk fans fighting over their alte k...ers
Hey! Hey! Hey! I'm far from a Hawks fan! I'm a diehard Isles fan, I just saw an interesting question and decided to weigh in.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2919 on: January 20, 2020, 04:55:52 PM »
Actually, Kane has higher highs, and higher lows. Granted I don't watch Kane play every day but I've yet to see complaints about him disappearing for long stretches or being inconsistent. His yearly numbers throughout his career attest to that. So does the 26 game point streak.
Kane has always put up great offensive numbers with basically no dry spells. Lets remember the 3 SC's they won was in big part because of there defense. That is a word Kane does not know.  :)
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half