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« Last edited by jj1000 on May 17, 2017, 10:02:20 AM »

Author Topic: NHL Master Thread  (Read 415191 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2920 on: January 20, 2020, 04:57:57 PM »
Just to be clear, you're saying Kane is lacking in the other attributes that make a player great?
The more areas you excel in the greater player you will be. Like this guy I heard of called MJ.  ;)
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Offline dpk4588

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2921 on: January 20, 2020, 05:06:34 PM »
The more areas you excel in the greater player you will be. Like this guy I heard of called MJ.  ;)
That's a nice idea, but we're not talking about who is an all-time great hockey player, we were comparing Kane & Towes. Also does Towes excel in those areas? Or were you just commenting on the fact that I was only using number as a way to compare two players?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2922 on: January 20, 2020, 05:07:47 PM »
Leadership - Leadership is something a lot of people have an issue with. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. Are you saying that a player can't be great if they don't play a leadership role? I'm not sure I can accept that. I'd say if you were comparing two players who are, all else equal, you could say that leadership could put one on top, but as it's own point on grading a player I'm not sure how much weight it should carry.

Leadership is one of his overrated intangibles. Yes it's worth something, but it's immeasurable, and whatever impact it has doesn't narrow the gap between him and Kane.
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Defense - The only way I can think of to measure defense would be +/- and blocked shots. For reasons I stated earlier I'm not sure of the validity of +/- and blocked shots isn't something I see tracked on either NHL.com or hockey reference so I have no way of judging defense without watching tons of Hawks games (which I don't regularly). So I do agree that defense is important in terms of measuring a player's skill and career, I just don't have a good way to measure it.

+/- is just about the worst way to measure defensive play, there are about 10k articles that explain the problems with it, and blocked shots don't make someone good defensively. Better measurements of defense include 5v5 shot attempts and xGF differential. Regardless, a winger has much less defensive responsibilities than a center, and Towes definitely excels in this area. 
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Going to the front of the net - I don't see how that's a measure of what makes one player better than another. Not everyone produces by being a net front presence. Also in terms of going to the front of the net, size often plays a role in that. I'm not gonna say that the 4" and 30 lbs Towes has on Kane makes it easier for him to play in front of the net, but it can be a contributing factor, or that's just Towes game and not Kane's.

Not nearly important as goal scoring, plenty of bottom 6 players do this well. The impact can also be measured in xGF.
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PK - I'm honestly not sure what makes certain players good on the PK, its probably their defensive skills or if they're good on faceoffs (particularly if they're especially good in the D-Zone), but that seems to overlap with the defense argument above.
I'm not sure about Towes's priorities, that's just might be something I don't know about him vs Kane because I don't follow either of them that closely, but unless that's something that's specifically come out in the media, I don't think that's something one can objectively say.

You'll know good PK'ing when you see it. Toews is good at PK. Kane is probably not. And even if he was, he still won't play it because scoring is at a premium and you have your best scorers playing during the times that they need to score.

In summary, Toews has a lot of good aspects that are valuable to a team, including PK, defense, among other things. But all these features can be found in a 3rd liner like Jesper Fast. Scoring is at a premium and you can't teach that. If Fast scored 65 points a year, I'd still take Kane over him.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2923 on: January 20, 2020, 05:40:14 PM »
Just to be clear, you're saying Kane is lacking in the other attributes that make a player great?
Yes but his offensive skills alone make him great.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2924 on: January 20, 2020, 05:41:12 PM »
In summary, Toews has a lot of good aspects that are valuable to a team, including PK, defense, among other things. But all these features can be found in a 3rd liner like Jesper Fast.
3rd liner? In your dreams!!!
ETA: Lets not forget Toews has 300+ goals. Not bad for a 3rd liner.  :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 05:51:47 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2925 on: January 20, 2020, 06:18:54 PM »
3rd liner? In your dreams!!!
ETA: Lets not forget Toews has 300+ goals. Not bad for a 3rd liner.  :)

You cut off the part where I mentioned scoring 65 points a year. Obviously his scoring is not of a 3rd liner. My point is that his scoring is far below Kaneís and his other positive attributes (that many 3rd liners are good at too) are not valuable enough to equal Kane.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2926 on: January 20, 2020, 07:23:21 PM »
You cut off the part where I mentioned scoring 65 points a year.
You are talking about an elite player who won 3 SC's in the same breath as a nobody. This is beyond laughable.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2927 on: January 20, 2020, 08:50:13 PM »
You are talking about an elite player who won 3 SC's in the same breath as a nobody. This is beyond laughable.

You completely missed the point, twice. Next topic.

Still think Tortorella is a terrible coach?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2928 on: January 20, 2020, 09:25:26 PM »
You completely missed the point, twice. Next topic.
I missed the point?  ::)
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2929 on: January 20, 2020, 09:36:59 PM »
Still think Tortorella is a terrible coach?
Is this the guy who didn't make the playoffs 2 of the last 5 years and the 3 years he did make it got blown out twice in the 1st round for combined record of 5-12?  Ya he sucks!!!
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2930 on: January 20, 2020, 10:54:24 PM »
Is this the guy who didn't make the playoffs 2 of the last 5 years and the 3 years he did make it got blown out twice in the 1st round for combined record of 5-12?  Ya he sucks!!!

Fake news much? His 1st round playoff record the last 5 years is 7-8, the 8 losses coming from the 2 eventual SC winners.

The guy that won a cup?
The guy that swept the best team in decades with a playoff bubble team.
Then loses Panarin, Duchene, and Bobrovsky this offseason, and no players on pace to hit 60 points. But still  has the 8th best record in the league?
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Offline dealfinder11

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2931 on: January 20, 2020, 11:11:47 PM »
You completely missed the point, twice. Next topic.

Still think Tortorella is a terrible coach?

He is the GOAT when it comes to press conferences

Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2932 on: January 20, 2020, 11:19:32 PM »
Fake news much? His 1st round playoff record the last 5 years is 7-8,
Oops my bad as they actualy won the first round last year before getting blown out in the second round. So change that 5-12 to 9-12.
But still  has the 8th best record in the league?
8th best record? Did I hear that right? Man he really does suck.
ETA: They don't have the 8th best record. They are in 8th place.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:24:42 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2933 on: January 21, 2020, 12:19:06 AM »
Oops my bad as they actualy won the first round last year before getting blown out in the second round. So change that 5-12 to 9-12.8th best record? Did I hear that right? Man he really does suck.
ETA: They don't have the 8th best record. They are in 8th place.

Iím not sure if youíre referring to points %, I donít see those numbers.
But yes, they are 8th place in points out of 31 teams with a pretty lousy team on paper. Thatís pretty good.
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Offline Yonah

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2934 on: January 21, 2020, 09:46:37 AM »
He is the GOAT when it comes to press conferences

He most certainly is. Case in point - this Gem from last season:


Offline yuneeq

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« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 06:01:30 PM by yuneeq »
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2936 on: January 21, 2020, 06:01:39 PM »
Ironic timing
Where they fighting over who was the true leader of the team?  :)
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: NHL Master Thread
« Reply #2937 on: January 21, 2020, 08:56:26 PM »
Standing O for Coach Q!!!
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