Author Topic: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?  (Read 13070 times)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2013, 01:18:04 AM »
There's a court system for a reason.

Because cops ever get punished for brutality and murder? They have an extremely low rate of getting punished, while the punishment they receive when they do, is usually severely lacking. When some deranged individuals start taking justice into their hands I am neither surprised nor unhappy.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2013, 01:27:07 AM »
Because cops ever get punished for brutality and murder? They have an extremely low rate of getting punished, while the punishment they receive when they do, is usually severely lacking. When some deranged individuals start taking justice into their hands I am neither surprised nor unhappy.
Sure you're not unhappy. At least not till it happens to you or a family member.
And he's not taking justice into his own hands. The ppl he killed were not related directly to the case. He's picking low hanging fruit. SO STOP JUSTIFYING IT!. (geez, sometimes i feel like i live in an alternative universe)

Listen, I'm sure we can all agree that the best solution now is that he's killed via a shootout which claims no other victims.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 01:37:19 AM »
Sure you're not unhappy. At least not till it happens to you or a family member.
And he's not taking justice into his own hands. The ppl he killed were not related directly to the case. He's picking low hanging fruit. SO STOP JUSTIFYING IT!. (geez, sometimes i feel like i live in an alternative universe)

Listen, I'm sure we can all agree that the best solution now is that he's killed via a shootout which claims no other victims.

You didn't have to make it personal. From what I read (a couple articles) it made it seem that he killed people from his list of 40 brutal cops. If that's the case, I shed no tears for brutal cops. I may be wrong though, again, its no reason to make it personal.
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Offline elig770

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 01:50:19 AM »
You didn't have to make it personal. From what I read (a couple articles) it made it seem that he killed people from his list of 40 brutal cops. If that's the case, I shed no tears for brutal cops. I may be wrong though, again, its no reason to make it personal.
He killed the daughter of a cop too!!

Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2013, 01:52:42 AM »
You didn't have to make it personal. From what I read (a couple articles) it made it seem that he killed people from his list of 40 brutal cops. If that's the case, I shed no tears for brutal cops. I may be wrong though, again, its no reason to make it personal.

Nothing personal here. I just can't stand hearing ppl justify him since he's anti-establishment. It has a corrosive effect on our society. And on the frum community in particular.

He killed the daughter of a cop too!!
Exactly. It puts to rest the claim that he's simply trying to kill the 'brutal' cops. He's out for blood, n/t more or less.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 01:59:30 AM »
Nothing personal here. I just can't stand hearing ppl justify him since he's anti-establishment. It has a corrosive effect on our society. And on the frum community in particular.
Exactly. It puts to rest the claim that he's simply trying to kill the 'brutal' cops. He's out for blood, n/t more or less.

I won't try justifying him murdering that daughter. I'm not happy about that either.

But his claims of being anti-brutality are not flawed simply because someone else paid a price in his personal war. I am now playing devils advocate, but he's no different than any country, army, and police force that all kill innocents in the name of "the greater good".

ETA: Claiming that you didn't make anything personal just makes me laugh. You wrote-
" Sure you're not unhappy. At least not till it happens to you or a family member."
- I guess you have the liberty of believing that the murder of someones family ch"v is something not personal.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:35:45 AM by yuneeq »
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2013, 02:42:24 AM »
I won't try justifying him murdering that daughter. I'm not happy about that either.

But his claims of being anti-brutality are not flawed simply because someone else paid a price in his personal war. I am now playing devils advocate, but he's no different than any country, army, and police force that all kill innocents in the name of "the greater good".

ETA: Claiming that you didn't make anything personal just makes me laugh. You wrote-
" Sure you're not unhappy. At least not till it happens to you or a family member."
- I guess you have the liberty of believing that the murder of someones family ch"v is something not personal.
Mentioning the killing of family is meant to drive home the point that it seems okay as long as its far away from us. Once we internalize it, we can see how the logic is flawed. I'd have used the term w/ anyone here on DDF, not just you. Hence, "n/t personal".

And what objective is he trying to achieve? Get his job back? Fat chance...
At this point, he simply wants vengeance and revenge. And no justified war is simply to extract vengeance. It's always to serve a goal. (Now whether we all agree w/ the goal is an altogether different story.)

So no, I don't see how this is similar to any countries war...

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2013, 02:57:34 AM »
Mentioning the killing of family is meant to drive home the point that it seems okay as long as its far away from us. Once we internalize it, we can see how the logic is flawed. I'd have used the term w/ anyone here on DDF, not just you. Hence, "n/t personal".

And what objective is he trying to achieve? Get his job back? Fat chance...
At this point, he simply wants vengeance and revenge. And no justified war is simply to extract vengeance. It's always to serve a goal. (Now whether we all agree w/ the goal is an altogether different story.)

So no, I don't see how this is similar to any countries war...

You don't see the similarity to countries going to war? Lets go through some recent wars: US-Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel-Gaza, Lebanon. All of those were revenge. All of which killed in total hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

About not being personal: According to your view, I can say "It would be weird if you get chopped up by a chainsaw" while claiming that "you" is no one in particular. That is wrong, and one would definitely have the right to feel offended.

Us God fearing Jews have a different way of expressing ourselves, so stick to that way please.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2013, 03:01:48 AM »
You don't see the similarity to countries going to war? Lets go through some recent wars: US-Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel-Gaza, Lebanon. All of those were revenge. All of which killed in total hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.
Officially, all those wars were to achieve a purpose. (Again, no need to discuss whether the purpose was justified or not.)
For what purpose is he killing ppl?

And plz, leave God fearing Jews out of this, since if I had to guess, no Rav would ever say that what he's doing is even remotely justified.
And w/ regards to how we talk... ever see a heated machlokes in the gemarah? :)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2013, 03:10:43 AM »
Officially, all those wars were to achieve a purpose. (Again, no need to discuss whether the purpose was justified or not.)
For what purpose is he killing ppl?

And plz, leave God fearing Jews out of this, since if I had to guess, no Rav would ever say that what he's doing is even remotely justified.
And w/ regards to how we talk... ever see a heated machlokes in the gemarah? :)

There is an inyan of not saying bad things should/could happen, al tiftach peh lesatan. You can insult me about my views; that I'm fine with. But please don't make it more personal than that.

Also, I never justified what he did. I am saying that he may believe that he has a good reason to have innocent bystanders murdered in his overall project of police justice. While I personally believe that if the murdered cop was actually brutal, good for all of us. I don't mind having one less pig in this world.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2013, 03:17:39 AM »
There is an inyan of not saying bad things should/could happen, al tiftach peh lesatan. You can insult me about my views; that I'm fine with. But please don't make it more personal than that.
God forbid "should". And I'm not certain what the problem is with mentioning things that 'could' happen. I do it with my kids all the time so they'll keep their guard up.

But if I insulted you, please accept my apology.
And when we meet at the next Jerusalem DO, we'll arm-wrestle it out.

(And I'll have a little chat w/ Mr. Satan later today to set him straight)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 06:03:51 AM »
God forbid "should". And I'm not certain what the problem is with mentioning things that 'could' happen. I do it with my kids all the time so they'll keep their guard up.

But if I insulted you, please accept my apology.
And when we meet at the next Jerusalem DO, we'll arm-wrestle it out.

(And I'll have a little chat w/ Mr. Satan later today to set him straight)

For your own sake, please stop talking to your kids like that. See the story of shmuel in kesuvos 23a and another one in moed katan 18a. In both stories someone said, "if this would happen to me/you" and in both stories, the bad thing happened. This concept is learnt out from the pasuk in koheles 10:5

כשגגה שיצא לפני השליט

Feel free to find sources that disagree.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 06:21:47 AM »
For your own sake, please stop talking to your kids like that. See the story of shmuel in kesuvos 23a and another one in moed katan 18a. In both stories someone said, "if this would happen to me/you" and in both stories, the bad thing happened. This concept is learnt out from the pasuk in koheles 10:5

כשגגה שיצא לפני השליט

Feel free to find sources that disagree.
So you don't plan on discussing with your kids about the dangers of talking with strangers, putting themselves into bad situations, or allowing adults to share 'secrets' with them? How about crossing a street w/o looking? How about bike riding w/o a helmet? How about etc.?

But I'm interested in learning more about your shita. Which siman in the shulchan aruch is it?

(Don't worry, I get the joke you're making, but some ppl here might take you seriously)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 06:35:01 AM »
(Don't worry, I get the joke you're making, but some ppl here might take you seriously)

Haha! ;D I get it!
Everything between Brochos 2a until the end of Shas is one big joke! Ha! ;D :P
And Tanach is the cherry on top!

We should merge all of shas to the joke thread! ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2013, 06:39:20 AM »
Haha! ;D I get it!
Everything between Brochos 2a until the end of Shas is one big joke! Ha! ;D :P
And Tanach is the cherry on top!

We should merge this with the joke thread! ;D ;D ;D
I'll wait for the siman reference so I can look it up tonight...

But you're not seriously saying to not warn children about the world are you? Or you just don't want to use the term "you" when talking to them? (I'm asking this seriously)
Would you phrase it "These are the things that can happen if xyz" as opposed to "these are the things that can happen to you if xyz"?

Offline Drago

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2013, 06:52:00 AM »
At this point, I don't think the conversation is going anywhere constructive. Let's mutually agree to end this, and allow other ppl their input on the original topic at hand.
I vote 'yea'

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2013, 06:54:10 AM »
I'll wait for the siman reference so I can look it up tonight...

But you're not seriously saying to not warn children about the world are you? Or you just don't want to use the term "you" when talking to them? (I'm asking this seriously)
Would you phrase it "These are the things that can happen if xyz" as opposed to "these are the things that can happen to you if xyz"?

I doubt its in S"A. Though anyone should know by now, that not everything in Judaism is printed in the S"A. The S"A is a halacha sefer, not mussar/hashkofa. The gemora states that the reality is, if you talk in a certain way, it brings bad things. One would be dumb to go ahead anyways. The same thing with ayin haro. We know the concept from the gemoras, not S"A.

I am definitely not saying that you cannot warn your kids about the dangers of life.

So, does it make a difference how one states things? Definitely! The main idea is not to refer to a specific person or group when talking about bad things that could happen to a person. I would phrase it the first way you mentioned.
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 07:33:54 AM »
You didn't have to make it personal. From what I read (a couple articles) it made it seem that he killed people from his list of 40 brutal cops. If that's the case, I shed no tears for brutal cops. I may be wrong though, again, its no reason to make it personal.
So if Hamas has a list of forty Jews that has been brutalizing their people it is OK to kill them and you would not shed any tears.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2013, 07:42:05 AM »
So if Hamas has a list of forty Jews that has been brutalizing their people it is OK to kill them and you would not shed any tears.

Bad analogy. Hamas terrorizes Jews; Jewish soldiers are sent to "kill" aforementioned terrorists. Cops terrorize the general population, I would not cry for the terrorizer when he gets what's due. 

If you're asking about truly evil Jews, that terrorize others for absolutely no reason, I would still shed a tear because of כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה.
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Re: Christopher Dorner, Villain or?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2013, 07:44:39 AM »
I can never support his actions which r sick & twisted, BUT if his claims r true I can sympathize with how he feels, it's well known that police in America r brutal barbarians with power who abuse the system & get away with it they view everyone as a suspect & use their power to humiliate & then cannot understand why people hate them. again what he's doing is not the answer
ftfy
in most countries its far worse