Topic Wiki

Editor’s note: I know enough about this topic to be dangerous, but I’m not a true expert so please feel free to add to or edit anything in this wiki that will improve it. The FAQs contain many oversimplifications but that is intentional to make the information relatable to the audience. Thanks!

Frequently Asked Questions

What are blockchains and bitcoins and what is the difference?
A blockchain is the fundamental element in a crypto currency system. A blockchain is an accounting ledger. Each block contains a bunch of journal entries (i.e. a chronological record of transactions) that gets encrypted (by miners) but can be downloaded and read by anyone on the network. Why the blockchain ledger is secure and how we can vouch for its integrity is a slightly more advanced topic.

An accounting ledger typically keeps track of money, and a blockchain is no different. But the only type of money that it can accurately track is digital money that lives on the blockchain network. So dollars, euros, etc are out. The digital money that lives on the blockchain is called a crypto currency, and the most well-known one at this time is Bitcoin.

Currently there are a few major blockchain networks: the Bitcoin Network, the Ethereum Network, and the Litecoin Network. Each one has its own currency, which are Bitcoin, Ether, and Litecoin, respectively.

I’m just a simple DDFer and not an accountant + cryptographer + hacker all at the same time. Can you make this a little simpler to understand?
Let’s try an analogy. There is a certain website called Dansdeals.com and it has quite a following. Some of the followers are just users/readers but others are more active and produce value for the website. When they provide value, they earn currency for their work – called “EQP” and “HT”. So we have something we will call the Dansdeals Blockchain Network that is simply a record keeper of various ongoing deals and it issues a native currency that is fractionable (10,000 EQP = 1 HT). This is similar to the Blockchain network recording financial transactions and issuing bitcoins. The ones who work for the network (miners) earn bitcoins and everyone else needs to buy it to participate.

The analogy improves if you imagine that the Dansdeals website visitors have to pay a small amount, let’s say 5 EQP, in order to access a deal or a code that is recorded on the network. If the website has 30,000 followers who love deals, but only 1,000 active members who earn EQP, then you can see that there is a need for a marketplace to be created where you can buy EQP for later use.

Of course, websites are not networks, and this analogy is far from perfect. But useful.

How much is a Bitcoin worth
No one knows. A few people are speculating its worth based on the potential that Bitcoin will one day become a major world currency that people use in their daily lives. Most people though are speculating its worth based on what the next new investor will pay them for it (google “Greater Fool Investing”).

Even if a crypto currency becomes dominant, who says it will be Bitcoin? Maybe it will be Schmitcoin?
This is completely possible. Bitcoin and Ether are the most likely at this point, but their long term survival is not at all guaranteed.

So why all the fuss about Bitcoin? Shouldn’t we wait for Schmitcoin and its cousins to come out?
You could, but you don’t want to ignore how hard it is to start up a network from scratch. It may be that as little as one person can create rival code to compete with the existing digital currencies and blockchains, but one person is not a network. You need a lot of highly technical and motivated people to join you and also to invest their time, energy, and money in making that network run. It’s a highly specialized group of people, and most of the people who would fit that profile are already tied up with an existing network. So it’s not impossible, especially in the long-term, but even if it does happen it would be unlikely to pop up overnight and so Vegas odds for Bitcoin are way shorter.

Let’s go back to the Dansdeals analogy. Imagine that Dansdeals is not the only such website, and there are other websites in existence that provide similar services. For the sake of the analogy let’s call them MMS and OMAAT. They too have big enough followings to survive independently, and even though each one offers a slightly different flavor that differentiates them, anyone on one of the networks could also get their most important needs met on one of the other networks. In this analogy, do you think it’s worth collecting EQP/HT or not? After all, Schmansdeals.com could open up one day and all the business could move there.

The argument for the difficulty of starting up a rival blockchain network is much stronger than in the analogy (especially if we start to include “smart contracts” in the discussion), but the basic idea that you need a critical mass of follows to be successful and compete with existing rivals is the same.

« Last edited by yuneeq on December 25, 2017, 01:05:21 AM »

Author Topic: BitCoin Master Thread  (Read 356774 times)

Online yuneeq

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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #760 on: January 18, 2018, 12:29:02 PM »
When we say something is overvalued, that implies that there's a certain value, and a method to reach or find out that value.

Could you please educate this curious soul as to what the current value of a Bitcoin is, and how you arrive at that value. Once we can have that (hopefully objective) information, we can all easily make our own educated decision at any given time on whether it is overvalued or not.

What's the value of a dollar? What someone would be willing to give in exchange for it. I don't know the real value of bitcoin, but comparing its utility relative to other cryptos, it seems way overvalued. It has the opportunity to fix some of these issues so its not completely worthless.

Quote
And now for a question about the currency/money aspects of Bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies): If you were to run a business, that transacts daily, weekly and monthly with other entities (be it individuals, other businesses, or government agencies) that don't accept Bitcoin as a form of payment. How comfortable would you be transacting in Bitcoin with anyone who wishes to do so with you, without having some sort of insurance (in the form of options or futures contracts) so that you have some level of certainty about the convertibility of the Bitcoin to a medium that is universally accepted?

If I wanted to transact in business I wouldn't use Bitcoin, but other crypto, as stated here for the tenth time. But yes, even bitcoin is exchangeable to a medium that is currently accepted, dollar bills, euros, yuan, etc. What hole are you hiding under?
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #761 on: January 18, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »
Remember this is the BitCoin Master Thread!!! This is what I am talking about. Others have asked and I will ask again. What metric are you using to value BitCoin?

I was just asked this question and already answered it.
But if you want more depth, consider the market cap of gold ($7 trillion) as a store of value and the possibility of crypto replacing part of it.
Or research the market cap of currencies around the world, and the user base of each currency. If crypto is transacted by a 10 million people every day, would it be fair to value it similar to a currency that has a user base of 10 million people? You do the math, and tell me what it's worth.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #762 on: January 18, 2018, 12:41:48 PM »
1. Can you send sand instantly for free around the world? Can you use sand to pay your drug dealer? Because you might not realize that drugs and other illicit payments will never go away.

2. You said that a crypto can be undermined by another crypto. Which is true. But that doesn't make all crypto worthless just because you said so. The dollar has value more than simply a form of tax payments even though there are currencies that are intrinsically better. When millions of people believe and use something, it has value whether you like it or not.
You are missing the point. If its value is entirely based on millions of people then when those millions of people change it will change too and that can be instantaneous. A fia currency has the backing of the fiat. You keep ignoring the points which are inconvenient to your opinion. I said exactly this more than once this morning. The point is also not that it can be undermined, but that the limited quantities are a myth. The quantities are only limited by the algorithm. Change the algorith and they are no longer unlimited. If anyhting the limits on the algorithm bring the value down by making a higher likelihood of it being undermined. Yes the dollar can be undermined and that risk should be taken into consideration, but as a fiat currency it would take either a change in fiat or the undermining of the government issuing it. That is different from the fickle opinions of which or if crypto is viable at all.

I am not really interested in repeating myself from your ignoring what doesn't fit with what you want to believe so there is a good chance I won't respond more.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #763 on: January 18, 2018, 12:42:17 PM »
But if you want more depth, consider the market cap of gold ($7 trillion) as a store of value and the possibility of crypto replacing part of it.
I own a fair amount of gold. You think crypto is going to replace some of it. If there is a world crisis you think people will buy crypto?
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #764 on: January 18, 2018, 12:42:50 PM »
If crypto is transacted by a 10 million people every day, would it be fair to value it similar to a currency that has a user base of 10 million people?
NO!!!!
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #765 on: January 18, 2018, 12:44:03 PM »
If I wanted to transact in business I wouldn't use Bitcoin, but other crypto, as stated here for the tenth time. But yes, even bitcoin is exchangeable to a medium that is currently accepted, dollar bills, euros, yuan, etc. What hole are you hiding under?

Your answer has zero to do with what he wrote. You claim that bitcoin is overvalued. What would you consider properly valued and how would you reach such a metric?
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #766 on: January 18, 2018, 12:48:07 PM »
If I wanted to transact in business I wouldn't use Bitcoin, but other crypto, as stated here for the tenth time. But yes, even bitcoin is exchangeable to a medium that is currently accepted, dollar bills, euros, yuan, etc. What hole are you hiding under?
Did I ever say that Bitcoin is not exchangeable?

Which crypto would you use in a business?

Would you use it (given the volatility) without hedging?

I hate fiat currency, but that's the world we live in. While I do own some gold, which I believe is a long-term store of value, I can't use that to buy groceries, clothing, buy energy that I consume daily, pay tuition, or any other living expense. It is definitely exchangeable into USD (and other currencies), but it's not practical as daily cash.

I am fully aware that the situation might (and likely will) change down the road. Blockchain technology is disruptive. But so was the internet and the world wide web (how many millenials are even familiar with the term that stands behind www?) yet some people around here were old enough to have seen the dot com bubble as adults. That is probably why we take a lot more cautious and skeptical view of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Will a winner (or winners) emerge? Yes! Which one will it be? I have no clue! What will the practical uses be? Too many to imagine!

I think there's a lot more agreement between yourself and people like @aygart, CM and myself, than you might be willing to admit, if you actually look at what people are saying with a cool head.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #767 on: January 18, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
You are missing the point. If its value is entirely based on millions of people then when those millions of people change it will change too and that can be instantaneous. A fia currency has the backing of the fiat. You keep ignoring the points which are inconvenient to your opinion. I said exactly this more than once this morning. The point is also not that it can be undermined, but that the limited quantities are a myth. The quantities are only limited by the algorithm. Change the algorith and they are no longer unlimited. If anyhting the limits on the algorithm bring the value down by making a higher likelihood of it being undermined. Yes the dollar can be undermined and that risk should be taken into consideration, but as a fiat currency it would take either a change in fiat or the undermining of the government issuing it. That is different from the fickle opinions of which or if crypto is viable at all.

I am not really interested in repeating myself from your ignoring what doesn't fit with what you want to believe so there is a good chance I won't respond more.

Please don't respond because you haven't said anything reasonable or answered one question I asked yet. You have a belief that overnight millions of people will stop using crypto so it will be useless and valueless, and your basing your arguments on your misguided beliefs.

Change the algorithm and you have something else completely. You are not changing bitcoin you are creating your own useless coin. That doesn't undermine anything just like monopoly money has no effect on the US dollar.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #768 on: January 18, 2018, 12:52:13 PM »
Please don't respond because you haven't said anything reasonable or answered one question I asked yet. You have a belief that overnight millions of people will stop using crypto so it will be useless and valueless, and your basing your arguments on your misguided beliefs.

Change the algorithm and you have something else completely. You are not changing bitcoin you are creating your own useless coin. That doesn't undermine anything just like monopoly money has no effect on the US dollar.
Sounds like economics, english, reading comprehension, logic ain't your thing.


Why would people use bitcoin if a different algorithm is better?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:59:07 PM by aygart »
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #769 on: January 18, 2018, 12:53:38 PM »
I own a fair amount of gold. You think crypto is going to replace some of it. If there is a world crisis you think people will buy crypto?

Just because some people think America is the only country in the world does not mean that there terrible countries don't exist where people are being forced to use crypto more and more.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #770 on: January 18, 2018, 12:58:24 PM »
Just because some people think America is the only country in the world does not mean that there terrible countries don't exist where people are being forced to use crypto more and more.
If some bankrupt country turns to crypto that don't give me much confidence in it.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #771 on: January 18, 2018, 01:02:22 PM »
Why would people use bitcoin if a different algorithm is better?

Have you ever heard the expression: "the US dollar is the worst currency, except for all others"?

If there's something better, that doesn't necessarily mean that the lesser will be abandoned. Now there are obvious differences, primary amongst them is the fact that there's no government involved.

While I feel extremely confident that my younger children will view car driving almost like my older ones view rotary phones, LP records, and other obsolete technologies which were part of daily life at various periods, and I think blockchain technology will be disruptive and transformative, I am not convinced that the current system of global fiat currencies and exchange rates will be a relic of the past.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #772 on: January 18, 2018, 01:05:20 PM »
If some bankrupt country turns to crypto that don't give me much confidence in it.


I don't think that's what @yuneeq was implying.

If I understood correctly, he was saying that if there's a third world country (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, for example) which has worthless currency, and a dictatorship that makes it close to impossible to use/store/accumulate hard currency, or even gold, the residents of such country might opt ("forced to") use crypto currencies as a last resort.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #773 on: January 18, 2018, 01:06:13 PM »
Did I ever say that Bitcoin is not exchangeable?

What other reason would I not have confidence in it's exchangeability?
Exchanging bitcoin for dollars can take seconds.

Quote
Which crypto would you use in a business?

I already mentioned one above, but I'll add Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash, among others.

Quote
Would you use it (given the volatility) without hedging?

Why do I need to hedge if I can purchase it, send it instantly, or receive it instantly and cash out instantly. Time is worth money, wiring internationally is painful, expensive, and takes days. Even if it goes down a few bucks it's easily still worth it for me.

Quote
I hate fiat currency, but that's the world we live in. While I do own some gold, which I believe is a long-term store of value, I can't use that to buy groceries, clothing, buy energy that I consume daily, pay tuition, or any other living expense. It is definitely exchangeable into USD (and other currencies), but it's not practical as daily cash.

I am fully aware that the situation might (and likely will) change down the road. Blockchain technology is disruptive. But so was the internet and the world wide web (how many millenials are even familiar with the term that stands behind www?) yet some people around here were old enough to have seen the dot com bubble as adults. That is probably why we take a lot more cautious and skeptical view of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Will a winner (or winners) emerge? Yes! Which one will it be? I have no clue! What will the practical uses be? Too many to imagine!

If you understand the value of gold, then you can understand crypto as a store of value, especially considering there are many countries that have insane inflation or currency controls and crypto is a way around it.

Quote
I think there's a lot more agreement between yourself and people like @aygart, CM and myself, than you might be willing to admit, if you actually look at what people are saying with a cool head.

I think some people here are on the same page but looking to argue the details. I don't believe bitcoin is the messiah, and would agree that it's overvalued. But people tend to think that if bitcoin has deficiencies then it has no value and no cryptos have any value either.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #774 on: January 18, 2018, 01:06:41 PM »

I don't think that's what @yuneeq was implying.

If I understood correctly, he was saying that if there's a third world country (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, for example) which has worthless currency, and a dictatorship that makes it close to impossible to use/store/accumulate hard currency, or even gold, the residents of such country might opt ("forced to") use crypto currencies as a last resort.
OK fair enough.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #775 on: January 18, 2018, 01:12:00 PM »
Have you ever heard the expression: "the US dollar is the worst currency, except for all others"?

If there's something better, that doesn't necessarily mean that the lesser will be abandoned. Now there are obvious differences, primary amongst them is the fact that there's no government involved.

While I feel extremely confident that my younger children will view car driving almost like my older ones view rotary phones, LP records, and other obsolete technologies which were part of daily life at various periods, and I think blockchain technology will be disruptive and transformative, I am not convinced that the current system of global fiat currencies and exchange rates will be a relic of the past.

Good points.
I don't think crypto will undermine current fiat completely but it will find it's use cases and thrive alongside it.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #776 on: January 18, 2018, 01:14:49 PM »
Have you ever heard the expression: "the US dollar is the worst currency, except for all others"?

If there's something better, that doesn't necessarily mean that the lesser will be abandoned. Now there are obvious differences, primary among  (FTFY  ;) ) them is the fact that there's no government involved.

While I feel extremely confident that my younger children will view car driving almost like my older ones view rotary phones, LP records, and other obsolete technologies which were part of daily life at various periods, and I think blockchain technology will be disruptive and transformative, I am not convinced that the current system of global fiat currencies and exchange rates will be a relic of the past.
The difference about government involvement is much more important than some understand. The same "millions" that started using bitcoin over a very short period can move away from it just as quickly or quicker. There is nothing at all bindng them to any crypto.

What is most likely is that crypto technology will become a part of fiat currencies. That would make crypto transaction technologies valuable but not the actual numbers.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #777 on: January 18, 2018, 01:17:19 PM »
What other reason would I not have confidence in it's exchangeability?
Exchanging bitcoin for dollars can take seconds.

Why do I need to hedge if I can purchase it, send it instantly, or receive it instantly and cash out instantly. Time is worth money, wiring internationally is painful, expensive, and takes days. Even if it goes down a few bucks it's easily still worth it for me.

Those two statements imply that it's an excellent transaction platform, which I don't think anyone is currently arguing about (though I've seen somewhere that transactions take much longer than they do using existing platforms such as Visa, MC, etc.)

But they seem to contradict
If you understand the value of gold, then you can understand crypto as a store of value,

I think some people here are on the same page but looking to argue the details. I don't believe bitcoin is the messiah, and would agree that it's overvalued. But people tend to think that if bitcoin has deficiencies then it has no value and no cryptos have any value either.

You have to consider the background of some people over here. Critical analysis of details is part of how we were trained to think.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #778 on: January 18, 2018, 01:17:19 PM »
I think some people here are on the same page but looking to argue the details. I don't believe bitcoin is the messiah, and would agree that it's overvalued. But people tend to think that if bitcoin has deficiencies then it has no value and no cryptos have any value either.
You have been asked numerous times what you would consider to be a fair value and how you would reach such a metric. THere has been complete radio silence. Also, neither I nor anyone else has said they are valueless. I said it has the value of the resources required to find the encryption.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #779 on: January 18, 2018, 01:23:35 PM »
Those two statements imply that it's an excellent transaction platform, which I don't think anyone is currently arguing about (though I've seen somewhere that transactions take much longer than they do using existing platforms such as Visa, MC, etc.)

I hate repeating myself, yes Bitcoin is slow while alternative cryptos can be instant and free.


Quote
But they seem to contradict

Just because you transact instantly doesn't mean you have to.
I don't see businesses investing in gold as a store of value and not sure why they would (unless it somehow specifically affected their business). Same for crypto. Why hold it if you do most of your business in USD? If your using crypto to transact, great, if you're using it as a store of value, great. To each for their own need.
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