Topic Wiki

Editor’s note: I know enough about this topic to be dangerous, but I’m not a true expert so please feel free to add to or edit anything in this wiki that will improve it. The FAQs contain many oversimplifications but that is intentional to make the information relatable to the audience. Thanks!

Frequently Asked Questions

What are blockchains and bitcoins and what is the difference?
A blockchain is the fundamental element in a crypto currency system. A blockchain is an accounting ledger. Each block contains a bunch of journal entries (i.e. a chronological record of transactions) that gets encrypted (by miners) but can be downloaded and read by anyone on the network. Why the blockchain ledger is secure and how we can vouch for its integrity is a slightly more advanced topic.

An accounting ledger typically keeps track of money, and a blockchain is no different. But the only type of money that it can accurately track is digital money that lives on the blockchain network. So dollars, euros, etc are out. The digital money that lives on the blockchain is called a crypto currency, and the most well-known one at this time is Bitcoin.

Currently there are a few major blockchain networks: the Bitcoin Network, the Ethereum Network, and the Litecoin Network. Each one has its own currency, which are Bitcoin, Ether, and Litecoin, respectively.

I’m just a simple DDFer and not an accountant + cryptographer + hacker all at the same time. Can you make this a little simpler to understand?
Let’s try an analogy. There is a certain website called Dansdeals.com and it has quite a following. Some of the followers are just users/readers but others are more active and produce value for the website. When they provide value, they earn currency for their work – called “EQP” and “HT”. So we have something we will call the Dansdeals Blockchain Network that is simply a record keeper of various ongoing deals and it issues a native currency that is fractionable (10,000 EQP = 1 HT). This is similar to the Blockchain network recording financial transactions and issuing bitcoins. The ones who work for the network (miners) earn bitcoins and everyone else needs to buy it to participate.

The analogy improves if you imagine that the Dansdeals website visitors have to pay a small amount, let’s say 5 EQP, in order to access a deal or a code that is recorded on the network. If the website has 30,000 followers who love deals, but only 1,000 active members who earn EQP, then you can see that there is a need for a marketplace to be created where you can buy EQP for later use.

Of course, websites are not networks, and this analogy is far from perfect. But useful.

How much is a Bitcoin worth
No one knows. A few people are speculating its worth based on the potential that Bitcoin will one day become a major world currency that people use in their daily lives. Most people though are speculating its worth based on what the next new investor will pay them for it (google “Greater Fool Investing”).

Even if a crypto currency becomes dominant, who says it will be Bitcoin? Maybe it will be Schmitcoin?
This is completely possible. Bitcoin and Ether are the most likely at this point, but their long term survival is not at all guaranteed.

So why all the fuss about Bitcoin? Shouldn’t we wait for Schmitcoin and its cousins to come out?
You could, but you don’t want to ignore how hard it is to start up a network from scratch. It may be that as little as one person can create rival code to compete with the existing digital currencies and blockchains, but one person is not a network. You need a lot of highly technical and motivated people to join you and also to invest their time, energy, and money in making that network run. It’s a highly specialized group of people, and most of the people who would fit that profile are already tied up with an existing network. So it’s not impossible, especially in the long-term, but even if it does happen it would be unlikely to pop up overnight and so Vegas odds for Bitcoin are way shorter.

Let’s go back to the Dansdeals analogy. Imagine that Dansdeals is not the only such website, and there are other websites in existence that provide similar services. For the sake of the analogy let’s call them MMS and OMAAT. They too have big enough followings to survive independently, and even though each one offers a slightly different flavor that differentiates them, anyone on one of the networks could also get their most important needs met on one of the other networks. In this analogy, do you think it’s worth collecting EQP/HT or not? After all, Schmansdeals.com could open up one day and all the business could move there.

The argument for the difficulty of starting up a rival blockchain network is much stronger than in the analogy (especially if we start to include “smart contracts” in the discussion), but the basic idea that you need a critical mass of follows to be successful and compete with existing rivals is the same.

« Last edited by yuneeq on December 25, 2017, 01:05:21 AM »

Author Topic: BitCoin Master Thread  (Read 353179 times)

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1280 on: January 03, 2021, 08:35:24 PM »
Wondering if someone here knows the subject.
+1
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1281 on: January 03, 2021, 10:30:11 PM »
I've never seen that in the T&C.
 Was it just added recently?

   On a serious note what do I care If i don't have physical access, in any case they're holding it for me, so what do I care how it's being held?

 Why would one go with fees when he can go with Robin Hood and avoid all fees?

 I've never really invested with Robin Hood, is it really that hard to withdraw from them? (Or what was meant when they said they don't have the withdrawing abilities? Withdrawing it to another crypto account? )

With Robinhood and Paypal you dont have the ability to withdraw your crypto or transfer it to another wallet. (Although Robinhood mentions on their site that they do have plans to allow depositing/withdrawing ) If you are in crypto to make a few bucks, then by all means, use those platforms to buy and sell. Its just like trading it as a stock but you have no ability to use the crypto except to sell for fiat currency. However, if you also want to own Bitcoin as a hedge against the U.S dollar, as an actual currency, to trade against other cryptocurrencies, or as a digital gold then I would suggest using a platform (Coinbase Pro, Binance U.S in most states, FTX U.S in most states) that allows the ability to withdraw your crypto onto a cold storage wallet (ex: Tezor or Ledger) or some other online wallet (I prefer the former).

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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1282 on: January 05, 2021, 03:32:15 AM »
With Robinhood and Paypal you dont have the ability to withdraw your crypto or transfer it to another wallet. (Although Robinhood mentions on their site that they do have plans to allow depositing/withdrawing ) If you are in crypto to make a few bucks, then by all means, use those platforms to buy and sell. Its just like trading it as a stock but you have no ability to use the crypto except to sell for fiat currency. However, if you also want to own Bitcoin as a hedge against the U.S dollar, as an actual currency, to trade against other cryptocurrencies, or as a digital gold then I would suggest using a platform (Coinbase Pro, Binance U.S in most states, FTX U.S in most states) that allows the ability to withdraw your crypto onto a cold storage wallet (ex: Tezor or Ledger) or some other online wallet (I prefer the former).
  Thanks for the explanation.
 Now what's the purpose of using the Cryptocurrency against  the US dollar? Because it's not backed by gold? And one will assume that the cryptocurrency will replace the US dollar?

  To own Bitcoin as a hedge against the US dollar you obviously have to believe that it will soar to crazy heights and become one of the most accepted forms of payment in the world were living in. Especially when we're living in a world of digitalilty, you technically don't have to touch a dollar.
While you have your smartphone, CC and everything else that replaces the physical Dollar would basically give strong believe to the Bitcoin that it's something that has great potential, and especially now during covid when one wouldn't want to touch money if he doesn't have to with all the germs and diseases out there.
    So a single bitcoin 10 years ago was at about $0.08 now 31k.. Mind boggling, but definitely shows there's potential in this market.

 Out of curiosity, a guy like Warren Buffett who lives in the stock market, why is he staying far away from such a market?
   I know he's no youngster and he's growing up back when the dollar had some value to it. But living in the world we do should he not be owing such shares in the Bitcoin world?

 My biggest question with Bitcoin is what's behind it? Is there anything physical backing it? Or the mere fact that there's Minors and people investing millions of dollars with Bitcoin being the source for it's value?

   
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 03:37:29 AM by myi »
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1283 on: January 05, 2021, 11:35:44 AM »
The issue I see with Bitcoin replacing the dollar (or any other fiat currency) is that to safely use bitcoin you need to learn how to be your own banker. Saving bitcoins in cold storage, transferring them to spending wallets, paying miner's fees, etc- all on the user. I bought a Ledger wallet several years ago and had some fun with it but it was a learning experience that the majority of people will not be able/willing to get through.

As far as being a hedge against the US Dollar - that has to be at least partly true right now. There's little doubt that the recent surge is a byproduct of the relentless buying actions by the Fed to prop up stock prices (printing money, buying EFTs and such). We're in an interesting economic world where there's a normal level of inflation in the retail/manufacturing world but hyper-inflation in the investing world. When or if a significant amount of inflated money from the investing world makes it's way into the retail economy it will almost certainly accelerate inflation and devalue the dollar, so holding on to a counter-inflationary instrument like Bitcoin is an excellent hedge.

Bitcoin is backed by nothing but its popularity. It is useful to certain people so they want it (some for spending, some for storing value). Popularity leads to greater popularity with a snowball effect.

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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1284 on: January 05, 2021, 01:23:39 PM »
The issue I see with Bitcoin replacing the dollar (or any other fiat currency) is that to safely use bitcoin you need to learn how to be your own banker. Saving bitcoins in cold storage, transferring them to spending wallets, paying miner's fees, etc- all on the user. I bought a Ledger wallet several years ago and had some fun with it but it was a learning experience that the majority of people will not be able/willing to get through.

As far as being a hedge against the US Dollar - that has to be at least partly true right now. There's little doubt that the recent surge is a byproduct of the relentless buying actions by the Fed to prop up stock prices (printing money, buying EFTs and such). We're in an interesting economic world where there's a normal level of inflation in the retail/manufacturing world but hyper-inflation in the investing world. When or if a significant amount of inflated money from the investing world makes it's way into the retail economy it will almost certainly accelerate inflation and devalue the dollar, so holding on to a counter-inflationary instrument like Bitcoin is an excellent hedge.

Bitcoin is backed by nothing but its popularity. It is useful to certain people so they want it (some for spending, some for storing value). Popularity leads to greater popularity with a snowball effect.

I don't see Bitcoin replacing the USD (or any other currency) for transactions just like you can't really use gold for daily transactions. As a store of value, once the technology is proven and adoption becomes mainstream or widespread, I see no reason why this wouldn't be considered the digital version of gold (long-term store of value, with periods of high volatility). It seems to me like BTC is in the process of maturing into mainstream adoption (albeit with the mainstream just now tiptoeing into it).
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1285 on: January 05, 2021, 01:28:41 PM »
Gold has an estimated market of $10T. BTC is around $300B. Gold has been used as currency since the world was created, it's going to take a few thousand years for BTC to reach that level of safety net perception.

Most buyers of BTC are doing it to speculate on its value rising. Most gold buyers (central banks, etc) are doing so just to protect their value from falling.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1286 on: January 05, 2021, 01:31:55 PM »
Gold has an estimated market of $10T. BTC is around $300B. Gold has been used as currency since the world was created, it's going to take a few thousand years for BTC to reach that level of safety net perception.

Most buyers of BTC are doing it to speculate on its value rising. Most gold buyers (central banks, etc) are doing so just to protect their value from falling.

Gold also has way higher liquidity than BTC, it's also fungible in ways bitcoin isn't. Either way, BTC face value could keep rising until it's 10T, but in reality it's a house of cards that will collapse when the sell rally begins.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1287 on: January 05, 2021, 01:39:33 PM »
Most buyers of BTC are doing it to speculate on its value rising. Most gold buyers (central banks, etc) are doing so just to protect their value from falling.

I don't know what most buyers of BTC are doing, but I doubt that a venerable company such as MassMutual is speculating on its value rising when they put $168MM into it.

As to central banks buying gold to protect their value from falling, I guess they sell gold to protect their value from rising?

I remember a time, not so long ago, when the voices against the Barbaric Relic that pays no dividends, has carrying/storing costs, and has virtually no real world utility were very loud and heard all over.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1288 on: January 05, 2021, 01:41:31 PM »
Gold also has way higher liquidity than BTC, it's also fungible in ways bitcoin isn't. Either way, BTC face value could keep rising until it's 10T, but in reality it's a house of cards that will collapse when the sell rally begins.

Well, many posit that fiat currencies are the real house of cards. Can you prove them wrong based on fundamentals?
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1289 on: January 05, 2021, 01:41:39 PM »
I don't know what most buyers of BTC are doing, but I doubt that a venerable company such as MassMutual is speculating on its value rising when they put $168MM into it.

Volatility/bear market in other markets will cause BTC speculation to increase and thus drive BTC up, so it's a hedge of sorts. It's still speculative, fundamentally there's very little value.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1290 on: January 05, 2021, 01:43:19 PM »
Well, many posit that fiat currencies are the real house of cards. Can you prove them wrong based on fundamentals?

I can't, but at least they're backed by governments/reserve banks (that control monetary policy/interest rates, whilst BTC by definition lacks that and is believed to be manipulated by mysterious movers/shakers.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1291 on: January 05, 2021, 01:44:31 PM »
Volatility/bear market in other markets will cause BTC speculation to increase and thus drive BTC up, so it's a hedge of sorts. It's still speculative, fundamentally there's very little value.

I would be extremely cautious in making any predictions with any level of certainty, especially when predicting any type of correlation.

Help me understand the fundamentals of Gold. Help me understand the fundamentals of fiat currencies.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1292 on: January 05, 2021, 01:46:59 PM »
I can't, but at least they're backed by governments/reserve banks (that can go BRRRR control monetary policy/interest rates, whilst BTC by definition lacks that and is believed to be manipulated by mysterious movers/shakers.;D

FTFY
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1293 on: January 05, 2021, 01:52:40 PM »
I would be extremely cautious in making any predictions with any level of certainty, especially when predicting any type of correlation.

It's not a prediction, I'm suggesting what they (e.g. MassMutual) might be thinking and am happy to consider alternative suggestions.

Quote
Help me understand the fundamentals of Gold. Help me understand the fundamentals of fiat currencies.

Longer and better track record compared to BTCs volatility. So at very least gold and fiat currencies beat BTC when it comes to market sentiments.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1294 on: January 05, 2021, 01:54:17 PM »
FTFY

They can in theory, but meanwhile vast majority of people are calmly holding onto their USD and will exchange it for Gold or other tangible valuables if their faith in USD is shaken for whatever reason.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1295 on: January 05, 2021, 02:13:32 PM »
It's not a prediction, I'm suggesting what they (e.g. MassMutual) might be thinking and am happy to consider alternative suggestions.

Be cautious when you use the word "will", that sounds like a prediction.

Do you really think an insurance company is speculating? I highly doubt it. I would think they are hedging (against significant currency devaluation).

Longer and better track record compared to BTCs volatility. So at very least gold and fiat currencies beat BTC when it comes to market sentiments.

Gold definitely has a longer track record, as do fiat currencies (albeit those have a much shorter track record than gold). Even before the age of fiat currencies, sovereigns have devalued their currencies (by fiat, as has been done in modern times, or by actually changing the composition of their currencies as it was done in ancient times). An asset that is independent of manipulation by force or edict is seen as a hedge against currency devaluation. IMHO the two main reasons holding up significant mainstream adoption of BTC are fear of the technology being able to be manipulated, and fear of some kind of edict severely restricting it.  Absent those two fears, there is no reason why it shouldn't be viewed as the digital version of gold. Obviously, those fears are real, which is why it is not the digital version of gold.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1296 on: January 05, 2021, 02:15:19 PM »
I can't, but at least they're backed by governments/reserve banks (that control monetary policy/interest rates, whilst BTC by definition lacks that and is believed to be manipulated by mysterious movers/shakers.

https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/this-time-is-different-reinhart-e.pdf

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• Currency debasement was common for centuries. In the past 100 years, inflation has replaced debasement.
• Sovereign defaults are a normal part of global capitalism, although they ebb and flow.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1297 on: January 05, 2021, 02:20:29 PM »
Absent those two fears, there is no reason why it shouldn't be viewed as the digital version of gold. Obviously, those fears are real, which is why it is not the digital version of gold.

BTC is expensive and complicated to transfer, compared to cash or gold. You also need to consider familiarity/adoption, which isn't the same for BTC as it is for cash (or even gold).
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1298 on: January 05, 2021, 02:22:04 PM »
https://www.economist.com/media/pdf/this-time-is-different-reinhart-e.pdf

The article suggests regulation to mitigate the risk of bubbles/devaluation. Let's see how well BTC survives regulation. One of BTC's value propositions is anonymity, regulation will kill that and the BTC traffic it drives.
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Re: BitCoin Master Thread
« Reply #1299 on: January 05, 2021, 02:28:12 PM »
The article suggests regulation to mitigate the risk of bubbles/devaluation. Let's see how well BTC survives regulation. One of BTC's value propositions is anonymity, regulation will kill that and the BTC traffic it drives.

That isn't an article, it's an abstract summary of a (by now very famous) book.

Remember gold was also once regulated in the US (and very possibly elsewhere). At a certain point, the genie is out of the bottle and regulation can have an opposite effect. I am not saying that is the case with BTC, but it is possible that BTC is approaching that level of maturity. It would require a global coordinated effort to attempt to put that genie back into the bottle (and with time, it might get out again). Don't only think about currencies and gold. Think Alcohol (prohibition). Think Cannabis (legalization). Though the latter two are highly regulated and are government cash registers.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 02:50:25 PM by ExGingi »
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