NBA Master Thread

[JTZ]

Nobody cares about defense when 2 players score 40 in the same game. Just like in every sport the coaching never gets the credit they deserve.

I am just giving you the facts, that's all. 
Just like nobody cares that CLE has won a championship in the last 50+ years but again that does not fit with the fairytale storyline.

[skyguy918]

Where are you cherry-picking your stats from? PPG for opponent GS is 19th and CLE is 4th. Defense wins championships, PERIOD!!!

CLE shut down this so called high powered offense (#1 in the league). That is why they won but that doesn't fit with the fairytale storyline.

Oh JTZ, next you're going to tell me wins is the best indicator of performance for pitchers in baseball  . Nobody uses straight PPG anymore. How good you are defensively is about how well you defend each possession. Therefore points allowed per possession (or per 100 possessions, which is how the stat is kept) is the number that matters. GSW allowed 103.8 per 100 possessions to CLE's 104.5.

We had a pretty unique situation here with the last 2 years. Same 2 teams, different result. The standard line about the game slowing down in the playoffs was on full display in both years, easily identified through pace (essentially possessions per game). CLE's regular season average was 95.48 possessions per game (94.78 last year), with GSW at 101.65 (100.69 last year). The finals averaged 95.38 over the series this year, and 94.78 last year. So in both years, CLE was able to slow the game down to their preferred pace. And in both years, the defense was remarkably similar. CLE allowed 104.7 (per 100 possessions) this year and 104.4 last year, right around their regular season average from last year (104.1) and a little worse than this year (102.3).

So what was the difference? It was actually their offense. Last year they played their hearts out on defense, but couldn't score for the life of them  - 93.8 points per 100 possessions, a marked decline from their 107.7 regular season mark. That makes sense of course, as they were missing their #2 and 3 offensive options. This year they did a much better job in that regard, averaging 105.3 vs their regular season average of 108.1.

Like I said, I won't disagree with the whole idea. You absolutely can't win in the NBA without a really good defense. And good defense is probably at least a little more important than good offense. But let's not attempt to equate it to the NFL.

[JTZ]

Oh JTZ, next you're going to tell me wins is the best indicator of performance for pitchers in baseball  . Nobody uses straight PPG anymore. How good you are defensively is about how well you defend each possession. Therefore points allowed per possession (or per 100 possessions, which is how the stat is kept) is the number that matters. GSW allowed 103.8 per 100 possessions to CLE's 104.5.

You can play with these stats all day long but you can't dispute the gold standard of PPG. 

What if you are a terrible rebounding team? Won't that give the other team more possessions in the game and lower your points per 100 or is a new shot clock considered the same possession?

What about the scoring title? Is that points per shot?   

[skyguy918]

You can play with these stats all day long but you can't dispute the gold standard of PPG. 

What if you are a terrible rebounding team? Won't that give the other team more possessions in the game and lower your points per 100 or is a new shot clock considered the same possession?

What about the scoring title? Is that points per shot?   

If PPG is your gold standard, you should probably be shorting gold.

Shot clock does not determine possession. I'm fairly certain that by definition, in every game the teams will either have the same number of possessions or be off by one. A possession ends with either a score or a turnover of some sort (ie not necessarily the type that gets ascribed to each player). The exact definition of a possession varies (I was giving NBA's stats site's numbers), but an offensive rebound would not create a new possession. Nor should it. To put it in old school terms, you need stops - you need to get the ball back without giving up points (or giving up as few as possible). If you give up an offensive rebound, you didn't give up a basket, nor did you get a stop - so it's still the same possession.

Ugh... scoring title. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a dumber 'award'. I'll remind you that Carmelo Anthony won a scoring title.

[JTZ]

If PPG is your gold standard, you should probably be shorting gold.

...but I am making a killing being long. 

[JTZ]

Shot clock does not determine possession. I'm fairly certain that by definition, in every game the teams will either have the same number of possessions or be off by one. A possession ends with either a score or a turnover of some sort (ie not necessarily the type that gets ascribed to each player). The exact definition of a possession varies (I was giving NBA's stats site's numbers), but an offensive rebound would not create a new possession. Nor should it. To put it in old school terms, you need stops - you need to get the ball back without giving up points (or giving up as few as possible). If you give up an offensive rebound, you didn't give up a basket, nor did you get a stop - so it's still the same possession.

Section I-Definition For the purpose of clarification the 24-second device shall be referred to as "the 24-second clock."
Section II-Starting and Stopping of 24-Second Clock
a. The 24-second clock will start when a team gains new possession of a ball which is in play.
b. On a throw-in, the 24-second clock shall start when the ball is legally touched on the court by a player.
c. A team must attempt a field goal within 24 seconds after gaining possession of the ball. To constitute a legal field goal attempt, the following conditions must be complied with:
(1) The ball must leave the player's hand prior to the expiration of 24 seconds.
(2) After leaving the player's hand(s), the ball must make contact with the basket ring.
d. A team is considered in possession of the ball when holding, passing or dribbling. The team is considered in possession of the ball even though the ball has been batted away but the opponent has not gained possession.
e. Team possession ends when:
(1) There is a legal field goal attempt
(2) The opponent gains possession

[skyguy918]

Section I-Definition For the purpose of clarification the 24-second device shall be referred to as "the 24-second clock."
Section II-Starting and Stopping of 24-Second Clock
a. The 24-second clock will start when a team gains new possession of a ball which is in play.
b. On a throw-in, the 24-second clock shall start when the ball is legally touched on the court by a player.
c. A team must attempt a field goal within 24 seconds after gaining possession of the ball. To constitute a legal field goal attempt, the following conditions must be complied with:
(1) The ball must leave the player's hand prior to the expiration of 24 seconds.
(2) After leaving the player's hand(s), the ball must make contact with the basket ring.
d. A team is considered in possession of the ball when holding, passing or dribbling. The team is considered in possession of the ball even though the ball has been batted away but the opponent has not gained possession.
e. Team possession ends when:
(1) There is a legal field goal attempt
(2) The opponent gains possession

Lol, that's the definition of possession for determining the shot clock, not for stats. I concede that the overlapping terminology is less than ideal.

One other thing I forgot to mention. The exact same argument I just made can be recreated with PPG. Last year, CLE held GSW to 100.7 PPG in the finals. This year they held them to 100.4 PPG. Meanwhile, CLE went from 93.5 PPG last year to 99.9 PPG this year. So what was the difference between their 2015 loss and their 2015 win? Their offense.

[Baruch]

Football is no different. Defense wins championships.

Exactly. Tom Brady and Joe Montanna were great defensive players. That's why they have so may rings.
(QBs win championships, and occasionally defense wins)

[JTZ]

Exactly. Tom Brady and Joe Montanna were great defensive players. That's why they have so may rings.
(QBs win championships, and occasionally defense wins)

...and so were Elway and Manning. 

You sure you want to down that road? Lets not forget the greatest quarterback of all time, James Robert McMahon, Jr.

[skyguy918]

Exactly. Tom Brady and Joe Montanna were great defensive players. That's why they have so may rings.
(QBs win championships, and occasionally defense wins)

Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and a few others would like a word with you.

If you look at historically, defense absolutely won championships. You can probably argue though that in the last ten years or so there have been a bunch of teams that break the mold - enough to question whether it's really true any more.

[isaac1]

Exactly. Tom Brady and Joe Montanna were great defensive players. That's why they have so may rings.
(QBs win championships, and occasionally defense wins)

You obviously need a good offense, but the main point is great defenses get it done great offenses rarely do.
#2007patriots
#2011packers
#2013broncos
#everypeytonmanningoffense
The list can go on and on

[Baruch]

Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and a few others would like a word with you.

If you look at historically, defense absolutely won championships. You can probably argue though that in the last ten years or so there have been a bunch of teams that break the mold - enough to question whether it's really true any more.

I agree read my whole post.
Most championships are QB, some defense.

[skyguy918]

You obviously need a good offense, but the main point is great defenses get it done great offenses rarely do.
#2007patriots
#2011packers
#2013broncos
#everypeytonmanningoffense
The list can go on and on

So just to elaborate on my comment about this changing in more recent years, I'll give you a few examples of offenses getting it done.

'09 Saints (#20 in points allowed, #1 in points scored)
'06 Colts (#23 in points allowed, #2 in points scored)

Also, both recent Giants SB winners were bottom half of the league in points allowed, but they were also only 9th and 14th in points scored, so...

[JTZ]

What thread is this?

[jj1000]

What thread is this?

A DDF thread?

[isaac1]

So just to elaborate on my comment about this changing in more recent years, I'll give you a few examples of offenses getting it done.

'09 Saints (#20 in points allowed, #1 in points scored)
'06 Colts (#23 in points allowed, #2 in points scored)

Also, both recent Giants SB winners were bottom half of the league in points allowed, but they were also only 9th and 14th in points scored, so...

What more do you need than the 2013 Super Bowl?
Peyton manning went up against a very weak Chicago team in 06', maybe drew bees actually won without a good defense, however correct me if I'm wrong they essentially won that game with a pick.
Are you really going to draw conclusions form the 2 giant super bowl teams stats? Really? They were both subpar teams until the end of the season when they got "hot" (and a little lucky, but that's just coming from a disgruntled packer fan).

[keemster26]

Can someone please explain to me why Dwayne Wade is even considering Denver at this point in his career?

[jj1000]

Can someone please explain to me why Dwayne Wade is even considering Denver at this point in his career?

So he can leverage Miami for more money.

[JTZ]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/nba-executives-reportedly-upset-over-warriors-signing-pachulia/ar-AAi8RI0?li=BBnbfcL

[A3]

Wade to the Bulls.
Dunleavy to gn the Cavs