Author Topic: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement  (Read 10698 times)

Offline smart brit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 2058
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: New york / London
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2013, 12:26:15 AM »
Quite the firestorm I started on the main site :D
+1 on the post.
I wonder what type of people are the ones who argue and defend elal at all costs?
Are these people just not using a business head?
Would anyone who experienced a car ride with a Jewish cabbie that over charged and provided bad service try him again because he is Jewish?
And besides that the post is written from a business prospective and in that case elal is run terrible and that is saying it mildly

Offline Deal Guy

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 4966
  • Total likes: 131
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2013, 12:38:27 AM »
Im a bit confused. I t seems that Elal is cancelling all flights, but has there been any activity NY to tlv today? Or will there be tomorrow. It seems that perhaps yes. Am I wrong?

Offline Centurion

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1310
  • Total likes: 5
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York / Jerusalem
  • Programs: spg plat,avis pres ,hertz plat ,AAexcutime, delta plat,hilton gold, united
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2013, 12:42:42 AM »
tonight flight flew on time.
lets see what happens when they arrive.
my dad on the flight
you can only make a first impression ONCE

Offline Deal Guy

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 4966
  • Total likes: 131
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2013, 12:52:04 AM »
Am I wrong to assume that Elal had flight 001 depart Ben Gurion at 1am and is on route now to jfk scheduled to arrive at around 6am?
Why are they saying that all flights are cancelled?

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6842
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2013, 05:39:14 AM »
Am I wrong to assume that Elal had flight 001 depart Ben Gurion at 1am and is on route now to jfk scheduled to arrive at around 6am?
Why are they saying that all flights are cancelled?
Who is they?
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6842
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2013, 05:57:07 AM »
Dan please only publish the second version of my comment. Thanks
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline hocker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 3539
  • Total likes: 85
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2013, 06:26:15 AM »
Dan please only publish the second version of my comment. Thanks
I guess Mods have limitations too!

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8416
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2013, 06:41:48 AM »
Quite the firestorm I started on the main site :D
I agree w/ the thrust of the article, but I think you were a bit sloppy on a few points.

"Tourism in Israel lags far behind where it should be due to the high cost of flying there.  Inviting more competition will drive down the cost of airfare and increase the number of tourists, who spend lots of money while in Israel propping up the entire economy."
While it may lag behind where it 'should be' (although I'm not sure how you define that), they've had record tourists each of the last 2 years, and it's been steadily climbing. Right now, the lack of hotel space is a bigger problem.

"All their whining about keeping a national carrier afloat is malarkey, what they really want to do is keep their overpaid salaries afloat."
I agree that their salaries are likely overpaid, but what do you have to back it up? How do they compare to the salaries at other airlines? (See this article about redundancies or workers. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000837839&fid=4111)

"I don’t know of any Israeli companies that compete based on service."
Seeing as Israel's strongest suit is its exports, I'd assume that plenty of external firms are happy with their service. In the tourist and consumer goods areas you may be correct though. Although, it's a bit of a strong statement coming from s/o not living here, but it certainly is our reputation.

"Mileage programs are massive profit centers for airlines... And yet El Al doesn’t even try to compete for these dollars!"
It is a shame that LY doesn't compete for this, but there may be hope. According to ppl at the FT DO w/ LY b/f Pesach, they may be coming out with a new cc agreement, or s/t of the sort.
Although, I'm not sure why cc companies would want to deal with them, seeing as they represent such a small market.

"2. Making customer friendly moves like the elimination of mileage expiration and fuel surcharges."
Unfortunately, when I asked them this, they seemed to be happy to keep the European model. Maybe that's who they think they're competing with.

"As far as I know this is only an issue now in business class between TLV and the far east."
Still wish you would've brought it up, unless you don't want the great value to be publicized.

"Turkey has a tourism industry that is orders of magnitude greater than Israel’s."
I tried finding stats on tourism as a % of gdp for both countries, but wasn't successful in my few minute search. Nonetheless, I'd doubt that it's higher than Israel's in terms of its effect on gdp.

"From a frum perspective the answer is that Gd pays us back multifold, but El Al isn’t doing it to be frum, they’re doing it because it’s a good business decision.
They make more money because they don’t fly on shabbos than if they did fly on shabbos and lost a large segment of the flying population in Israel."

I don't think this is their decision only. These things have much deeper political ramifications, and LY wouldn't be able to change it by themselves.
Plus, it's not one day a week. Since flights can't land either, it's closer to 36 hours of not working. And unlike frum stores, they're competing for a global audience that has certain needs. (And there's a reason that so many frum owned places find heterim for why their biz or website is allowed to operate on shabbos...)
And I don't think they'd lose a 'large segment' of the flying community. When you look at the % of frum ppl in Israel (and among all tourists), and consider the fact that many of them would continue to fly LY regardless, the loss would exist, but not as strong as you make it out to be. (Although I'm not at all advocating for them to start flying on shabbos.)
Anyhow, they already are mechallel shabbos. Check out the recent Haaretz article on this.


Either way, it was refreshing to see you shake things up, and LY definitely needs to change. (Although I can't imaging an alliance ever accepting them).

For those interested, there are many discussions on FT about what LY can do to change, including many interesting suggestions by a guy name ELY001  who claims that he wants to buy them out.
Chk out this thread, along w/ many others in the LY forum.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1459465-el-al-arkia-israir-strike-over-open-skies-approval.html

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 15091
  • Total likes: 2436
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2013, 07:00:57 AM »
"Turkey has a tourism industry that is orders of magnitude greater than Israel’s."
I tried finding stats on tourism as a % of gdp for both countries, but wasn't successful in my few minute search. Nonetheless, I'd doubt that it's higher than Israel's in terms of its effect on gdp.

GDP is not the correct measure. A country can have loads of  incoming tourism & a large tourism industry yet have an even larger GDP. The quesion here is how many people are choosing to visit Turkey instead of Israel, and how many Turks-abroad go to Turkey vs Israelis.

Percentage of GDP is a good way to measure how large of an impact tourism has on the economy and society as a whole, it does not measure the actual tourism.


The problems with Elal are not mistaken startegic decisions, they are completely unaware of how an airline business works.

The cc they are 'developing' is an Israeli cc which is a very small market, it is also little more than a fantasy of elal execs.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline damaxer91

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 3198
  • Total likes: 64
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2013, 07:10:19 AM »
GDP is not the correct measure. A country can have loads of  incoming tourism & a large tourism industry yet have an even larger GDP. The quesion here is how many people are choosing to visit Turkey instead of Israel, and how many Turks-abroad go to Turkey vs Israelis.

Percentage of GDP is a good way to measure how large of an impact tourism has on the economy and society as a whole, it does not measure the actual tourism.


The problems with Elal are not mistaken startegic decisions, they are completely unaware of how an airline business works.

The cc they are 'developing' is an Israeli cc which is a very small market, it is also little more than a fantasy of elal execs.

+1

They are also working on a US Credit Card as well

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 15091
  • Total likes: 2436
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2013, 07:44:51 AM »
+1

They are also working on a US Credit Card as well
What I heard from them recently is that the US cc industry does not make sense (earn too many points) so they will not participate. Talk about reinventing the wheel

They mentioned trying certain European markets, but they don't really know how to get in to those markets. Of course the US is by far the worlds largest consumer, especially when it comes to credit card points...

They have this pathetic approach that their potential clientele is every Jew in the world, but the non jews are non existent. Every other Jewish retailer tries as hard as possible to only sell to Gentiles...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 07:49:29 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline hocker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 3539
  • Total likes: 85
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2013, 08:00:48 AM »
In TLV. Strike is in full effect!

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8416
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2013, 08:12:10 AM »
What I heard from them recently is that the US cc industry does not make sense (earn too many points) so they will not participate. Talk about reinventing the wheel

They mentioned trying certain European markets, but they don't really know how to get in to those markets. Of course the US is by far the worlds largest consumer, especially when it comes to credit card points...

They have this pathetic approach that their potential clientele is every Jew in the world, but the non jews are non existent. Every other Jewish retailer tries as hard as possible to only sell to Gentiles...
But even if they had a US branded CC, who would sign up for it unless the earning rates were outta this world? Unless they were in an alliance, no one would want to lock in their miles with them.
And I don't think there's any chance of them joining an alliance.

GDP is not the correct measure. A country can have loads of  incoming tourism & a large tourism industry yet have an even larger GDP. The quesion here is how many people are choosing to visit Turkey instead of Israel, and how many Turks-abroad go to Turkey vs Israelis.

Percentage of GDP is a good way to measure how large of an impact tourism has on the economy and society as a whole, it does not measure the actual tourism.
I was actually trying to find the tourism gdp, not as a % of overall gdp, but as an amount per citizen. But I probably wrote it incorrectly.

Offline Drago

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 8416
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2013, 08:12:57 AM »
In TLV. Strike is in full effect!
It was funny seeing their protest by the Knesset area fizzle b/c of the rain Sunday morning.

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6842
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2013, 08:13:20 AM »
In TLV. Strike is in full effect!
TLV or LY?
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline Moishebatchy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 7280
  • Total likes: 151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 23
    • View Profile
  • Location: Jerusalem
  • Programs: Arzei Makolet Platinum, Yossi's Makolet Silver, Yesh! Gold, Rav Kav Dirt
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2013, 08:18:33 AM »
But even if they had a US branded CC, who would sign up for it unless the earning rates were outta this world? Unless they were in an alliance, no one would want to lock in their miles with them.

Seriously?! Haven't you seen how many suckers currently buy into the lousy HAS card because "it earns El Al points" and "you're supporting Israel"?!

Offline hocker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 3539
  • Total likes: 85
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2013, 08:19:42 AM »
TLV or LY?
LY. Tomorrow 5AM the Airport workers will be striking.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 15091
  • Total likes: 2436
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2013, 08:21:43 AM »
But even if they had a US branded CC, who would sign up for it unless the earning rates were outta this world? Unless they were in an alliance, no one would want to lock in their miles with them.

Its really quite simple. They dont have to reinvent the wheel. DL sells billions of dollars worth of miles to Amex every year. All they have to do is offer the same thing. It doesnt even have to be better.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Jkhein

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 4612
  • Total likes: 17
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2013, 08:23:32 AM »
LY. Tomorrow 5AM the Airport workers will be striking.
how about LH?

Offline Jkhein

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 4612
  • Total likes: 17
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: LY Strike in protest of Open Skies agreement
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2013, 08:23:51 AM »
Its crazy, it's such a bad time to do this. Lag bomer. I know of quite a few people who cancelled and flying alternative airlines.