Author Topic: The lady ate the bread  (Read 4235 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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The lady ate the bread
« on: July 06, 2010, 05:24:52 AM »
Question:

A lady made a neder that in the next 30 days from now she won't eat bread.

Her husband said on day 1, that if by day 30 his wife won't have eaten anything that is ossur, she shall be divorced from today (le'achar 30 yom me'achshov).

On day 10 the husband was mayfer the neder of his wife.

On day 15 his wife ate bread.

Since her neder was abolished, she wasn't eating something which is ossur, so the get was chal.

If the get was chal (from day 1), he husband couldn't be mayfer her neder, and thus she ate something ossur, and she is not divorced.

If she is not divorced, her husband could be mayfer the neder, and so on...



There is an answer (toisfos), but I wanna see some discussion going on.






Offline Chaikel

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 06:03:48 AM »
Can't the husband only be mayfer within 24 hours?
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2010, 06:15:32 AM »
Can't the husband only be mayfer within 24 hours?

Sounds more like a Continental type of husband.

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2010, 06:57:48 AM »
When he says la'acher shlosim yom ma'achshov, isn't the ma'achsov only chal when the second part (shloshim yom) happens?

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2010, 08:24:31 AM »
When he says la'acher shlosim yom ma'achshov, isn't the ma'achsov only chal when the second part (shloshim yom) happens?

Yes, correct.

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2010, 09:39:18 AM »
Sounds like a "mikan ulhaba, lemafreah" case which means that the lemafreah cannot effect eralier than now and will not affect an earlier chalos.

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2010, 12:21:17 PM »
It happens later-lemafrea, but once its emafrea, it obviously becomes retroactively before.

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2010, 12:37:03 PM »
um.. umm... not really what I said

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 12:49:25 PM »
You are right.

It is not what you said.

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2010, 05:59:41 PM »
Chaikel: Its one day from when he hears about the neder

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 06:09:22 PM »
Chaikel: Its one day from when he hears about the neder

Well, I left the "when he heard about her neder" out of it.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2010, 06:48:10 PM »
Chaikel: Its one day from when he hears about the neder
I'm aware. I misread the original question. I thought the בעל's תנאי was תלוי in her neder. In which case he has to know about it on day one
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Offline the great

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 09:31:01 PM »
Where is the toisfes that you said? i once heard the same question a little diff. reuven gave shimon meat and wine on the tenei that shimons son wont a ben sorer imoire, the son went and ate and drank it up, now the sheila is if its shimons then the son is a sorer if its reuvens then he is not (he is only chayev if he steals from his father) (in the sheila from the lady was soppossed to say instead of A lady made a neder that in the next 30 days from now she won't "eat bread". eat "this bread" cause a neder is only on a cheftsa not on a gavra and a shevuah is on a gavra and im not sure tha a husband can be mayfer a shevuah)

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 10:35:29 PM by the great »

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 10:34:44 PM »
Chaikel: Its one day from when he hears about the neder
It's actually till the end of the day, the rambam writes: הפרת נדרים כל היום ואינה מעת לעת

Offline YOSEF

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2010, 10:50:13 PM »
Where is the toisfes that you said? i once heard the same question a little diff. reuven gave shimon meat and wine on the tenei that shimons son wont a ben sorer imoire, the son went and ate and drank it up, now the sheila is if its shimons then the son is a sorer if its reuvens then he is not (he is only chayev if he steals from his father) (in the sheila from the lady was soppossed to say instead of A lady made a neder that in the next 30 days from now she won't "eat bread". eat "this bread" cause a neder is only on a cheftsa not on a gavra and a shevuah is on a gavra and im not sure tha a husband can be mayfer a shevuah)

Now thats a great first post: the true tachlis hachaim!

kudos; the name fits!!!

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2010, 12:10:18 AM »
 
(in the sheila from the lady was soppossed to say instead of A lady made a neder that in the next 30 days from now she won't "eat bread". eat "this bread" cause a neder is only on a cheftsa not on a gavra and a shevuah is on a gavra and im not sure tha a husband can be mayfer a shevuah)
It's a machlokes Rishonim if a neder beloshon Shvua can work many Rishonim are of the opinion that it can as long as the person states Harey alay

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 01:31:31 AM »
The toisfos I didn't mention, otherwise there is no question here.

But don't compare to ben soirer umoirer.

Toisfos talks about gittin.

Ps: not too convinced that her neder is problematic.

Offline the great

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2010, 12:06:36 AM »
Superflyer I think its time to spill the beans and tell us where the toisfes is!! And I don't understand why the sheila of a ben soirer is different actually I think its more of a never ending then the lady think it over and you will get it if not jut let me know I'll explain
 

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2010, 10:57:16 AM »
I believe I found the Toisfes!!!!

Offline elikay

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Re: The lady ate the bread
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2010, 12:55:26 PM »
  עי' תוספות גיטין דף פ"ג ד"ה ועמדה
This might be the Tosfos he meant. V'ulay yesh L'chalek.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 01:05:26 PM by elikay »