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Copied From the Learn Photography Master Thread: Lesson 1


Choosing a camera: Point and Shoot vs. Mirrorless vs. DSLR


Before you even start thinking which camera model to buy, you have to decide something much more important: the type of camera. There are three main types of cameras on the market today, and they each offer some things the others don't. Let's take a quick at them and see what the differences are and why you might choose one over the other.


Point & Shoots (P&S): These are by far the most popular cameras out there. Usually extremely compact, they're all easy to use, relatively cheap, and deliver great images. The point & shoot ranges from tiny shirt-pocket cameras such as the Canon Elph series, to large superzooms (sometimes called all-in-ones or bridge cameras) such as the Panasonic FZ series, to 'advanced' P&Ss like the Canon G series or the $2800(!) Sony RX-1. All P&Ss have fixed (non-removable) lenses.


Point & Shoot pros:
--- Amazing selection: At the time of this writing, B&H has 328 cameras in stock listed under Point & Shoot. A basic Canon Elph-style camera usually has a 3-8x zoom lens, a 3" screen, 1080p video, image stabilization, and a million other features. Should you could choose a superzoom, you'd get a 24-50x zoom, manual controls, a viewfinder, and (usually) a hotshoe for flashes. Advanced P&Ss will give you even more control, better, larger sensors, and higher quality lenses. Want a camera your baby could drop into a bowl of cereal? There are currently 18 different shock and waterproof cameras [url=http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ipp=100&Ns=p_PRODUCT_SHORT_DESCR|0&ci=8612&N=4288586279+35+4052359761&srtclk=sort]available
. Want a screen that swivels? Built-in GPS? WiFi? Check, check, and check. One screen not enough, you want two of 'em? Check!
--- Cheap: Even a $100 P&S will give you better pictures than a $500 camera from 5 years ago. You do not need to spend a fortune to get amazing pictures.
--- Light and easy to carry: No excuses for not shlepping the camera. If fits into your shirt pocket, a purse, just about anywhere.
--- Great video: Most current cameras are capable of recording 1080p HD video, or at least 720p. Combined with ubiquitous image stabilization P&Ss are capable of outputting awesome video.
--- Easy to use: Most P&S will only have an Auto or P mode, although some advanced or superzoom models will have full manual control. In Auto mode all you have to do is press the button. Some cameras even have an 'intelligent' auto feature where it could detect if you're shooting a flower, a portrait, etc. and adjust itself accordingly. This actually works pretty well on most cameras. In P mode you get a bit more control (you could turn the flash off, adjust the picture brighter or darker, etc.), but the camera still handles most of the decisions making for you.


Point & Shoot Cons:
--- Image quality relative to mirrorless and DSLRs: Yes, P&Ss will give you great picture quality - when situations are ideal. But if you plan to be shooting a lot in darker situations (indoors, your kids' school play) you will notice a considerable difference in quality compared to the other two. Sharpness will also not be as good as the others - the combination of a small physical lens, a small sensor, and over-zealous noise reduction (more on all of these later) is not a recipe for razor-sharp photos. These factors will be much less of an issue with advanced cameras such as the Canon G15, although a mirrorless or DSLR will still be far better.
--- Hard or impossible to achieve certain effects: You know that portrait look where the entire background is just blurred into creamy nothingness? That's one of the hardest things to create with a P&S (and conversely one of the easiest things to do with an SLR/mirrorless). Later on I'll show you some techniques to force this effect out of a P&S (to a degree), but the physics are simply not in your favor.
--- Speed: Compared to a DSLR, the P&S is practically a turtle. It takes a few seconds to turn on, zooming takes time, every setting change takes time. Most importantly though, is the speed at which the camera takes the picture. While a DSLR focuses almost instantly, a P&S could take a second or two. Once the image is in focus, there is a maddening delay called shutter lag, which is the time between you pressing the shutter button and the camera actually taking the picture. Between focusing and shutter lag, it could sometimes take 3 or more seconds to get your shoot, at which point the moment may be long gone. Later on we'll discuss some techniques for speeding this process up, but it'll still take far longer than a DSLR.
--- Not much control: The flip side to the P&S's ease of use it its lack of control. Want to lower your flash power so that people don't have that 'deer in headlights' look? Tough noogies. Want to change your aperture? Your shutter speed? Ain't happenin'. Of course some cameras do let you change all that, but a) they're in the minority by far, and b) since these are secondary features, you'll probably have to dig through 6 menu pages every time you want to make a change.
--- Limited expandability: A P&S is a closed system. Want a longer or wider lens? Want to use filters? No dice on most cameras. This is also a big issue if you ever want to dabble in lighting - it'll be quite difficult with a P&S.
____________


DSLRs: The big, black, "professional" looking cameras. Big, heavy, and (relatively) expensive, these have interchangeable lenses and optical viewfinders. The big players are Canon and Nikon, with Sony and Pentax having a small but dedicated market share. A typical 'starter' DSLR will have a 18 (Canon) or 24 (Nikon) megapixel sensor, come with an 18-55mm lens, and have actual buttons for only the most important tasks. As you move up through the lineup, you'll get more direct buttons and knobs, status LCDs, better focusing/metering systems, more lens support, metal or magnesium bodies, weather sealing, wireless flash control, higher frame-per-second rates, and more. You also get better kit lenses (that's the lens that comes with the camera) as you move up, and at a certain level (usually the third camera in the lineup) you'll also be able to buy the camera body by itself without any lens.


DSLR pros:
--- Image quality: This is the number one benefit of the DSLR - even the cheapest camera and lens combination will give you better pictures that any point and shoot, even if the P&S costs much more. (B&H currently lists 3 DSLR kits (camera and lens) for $450 - that's cheaper than some P&Ss.) Looking at pictures of a P&S and a DSLR side by side, you'll be blown away by the difference in sharpness, color, and dynamic range (explained later) of the DSLR. When it comes to low light, there's no contest; the DSLR wins hand down.
--- Control: In a DLSR you have control over every single shooting parameter. There are no limits to what you could create; everything's at your beck and call. Flash power, exposure, color, and most importantly, RAW shooting. (I'll get into far more detail on that last thing later.)
--- Special effects: Out of focus backgrounds? Easy peasy. Long exposures? Timelapse? You bet.
--- System expandability: DSLRs are sometimes called 'system cameras'. This is due to the fact that unlike P&Ss, a DSLR is not just a camera; it's at the heart of an entire system. Each brand has dozens of lenses available, plus many more from third-party lens manufacturers. You could get flashes, transmitters, remotes, and many other goodies and they will all work seamlessly and communicate properly to one another. BTW, this is why you should choose your first SLR very carefully: you're probably buying into a system. First you get a camera and lens, then another lens, then maybe another lens or a flash, and then the a new camera comes out so you buy that. It's quite the pain to switch to a different brand once you're bought in to the system.
--- Viewfinder: By definition, a DSLR is a single lens reflex camera; what that means is that inside the camera just behind the lens mount there's a mirror, which projects the image from the lens into a prism, which in turn shows up in the viewfinder. The big advantage of this is that when you look through the viewfinder you're actually looking through lens, and as such are seeing exactly what the lens sees. This gives you an extremely accurate and life-like view, which makes it easy to compose your shots properly. A viewfinder also lets you use the camera in bright light without worrying about not being able to see the screen.
--- Speed: A DSLR is ready to shoot almost instantly after being turned on. No matter where you are, be it a menu or playing back you pictures, a slight tap of the shutter button and the camera is instantly ready to shoot. Focus is nearly instantaneous, and shutter lag is pretty much a non-issue. Another speed aspect is continuous shooting - holding down the shutter button while the camera rattles off picture after picture. An entry-level camera  could easily do around 4.5fps (frames per second), while higher level cameras could do 7 or 8 (or 12, if you count the $6800 Canon 1D X).


DSLR cons:
--- Size and weight: There's no getting around it: DSLRs are big and bulky, especially if you're carrying more than one lens.
--- Price: DSLRs start at about $450, and go way up. One of the most common cameras, the Canon T4i, will set you back about a grand. And then you want to buy another lens. And another one. And another one... :D
--- Video: DSLR video is a really weird situation. On the one hand the quality is INSANE. Just look on Vimeo and see what people have been doing with the Canon 5DMk2 and Mk3 and you'll see what I mean. On the other hand, if you look at the behind the scenes video of one of those, you'll see that the camera is mounted on a rig costing $10K or more. The rig stabilizes the camera and provides support for the focus controls, the zoom controls, the sound system, and many other things. Why is all this necessary? Very simple - because the camera does a horrible job at all this if left to it's own devices. Focusing during video is horrible, especially if anything's moving through the scene. What this means is that if you're buying an SLR and are planning on taking videos of your kids running around in the park, you will be sorely disappointed - nothing will be in focus half the time, and when the camera finally does achieve focus, the built-in mike will have picked up every grind and whirr of the lens as it moved back and forth. Canon has made some progress on eliminating these issues with their new STM lenses, but for now that's only two cameras and two lenses, and even that isn't perfect.


__________


Mirrorless: Known by many different names (ILCs and EVILs for example), the industry has seemed to settle on Mirrorless lately. This was the brainchild of a joint venture between Olympus and Panasonic, and was aimed on creating an interchangeable-lens camera in with a P&S body and DSLR-like image quality, and has been wildly successful. Olympus and Panasonic are still the major players with their Micro 4/3s system, followed by Sony with their NEX line. Many others have tried to take over market share from the big 3, but have been largely unsuccessful mainly due to inferior products. Nikon 1, Canon, M, and Samsung NX are examples of fairly unpopular systems.


Most mirrorless cameras have a P&S form-factor, albeit somewhat larger. With the exception of Olympus and Panasonic, the lenses are not interchangeable between brands, but adapters are available to convert practically any DSLR (or old rangefinder camera) lens to just about every system. Most adapters will not autofocus the lens, so it's not exactly a perfect solution.


Mirrorless pros:
--- Size and weight: This is the main draw for most people. While not exactly pocket sized once a lens is in place, it it still a fairly compact kit and could be carried in a purse with ease. It's more like a large P&S than a small DSLR.
--- Price: Generally cheaper than a DSLR of a similar level. The Panasonics and Olympus (Olympusus? Olympi? ??? ) especially seem to be on sale more often than not.
--- Image quality: About as good as an SLR, simple as that.
--- Expandability: Like DSLRs, these cameras are part of a system. In the last couple of months more and more third parties have started to make lenses too. Micro 4/3s is a much more robust system then Sony NEX though, with many more lenses available.
--- Video: Video on mirrorless cameras is insanely fantastic. Similar in quality to an SLR, but with the ease of use of a P&S. It focuses quickly, perfectly, and fairly quietly.


Mirrorless cons:
--- Lenses: Far smaller selection than SLRs, although to be fair most important lenses are covered.
--- Image quality: A DSLR will still have slightly better image quality, especially in low light scenarios.
--- Viewfinders: Most don’t have viewfinders at all, which make it harder to use in low light. Some of those have axillary finders you could out in the hotshoe (usually at exorbitant prices or some reason), but these are just to give you a general idea of what the camera is seeing.
--- Batteries: Uses batteries like a P&S (200-400 shots), while a DSLR usually gets around 2000 shots per battery.
--- Speed: Focusing, while worlds better than P&Ss, isn't quite up to DSLR standards yet, but that's getting better every day.
--- Control: While mirrorless camera offer the same level of control as DSLRs, very often you'll have to dig through menus to get to where you want to. The main point of mirrorless being cutting down on size, buttons and knobs were eliminated without mercy.


___________


Lesson Summary:
--- Point & Shoots are great for most everyday shooting. Cheap, more options than you could ever want, great image quality and video. Quite difficult (but definitely possible - I'll show you how) to get the 'pro' look.
--- DSLR are king when it comes to image quality, control, and expandability. For the best pictures in any situation, go for a DSLR. Video, not so much.
--- Mirrorless cameras are the best of both worlds, with some caveats. Amazing image quality, the best video, and fairly small and portable. Less control and versatility than an SLR, though.

___________


For the full lesson series visit the Learn Photography Master Thread.

____________________________________________________

Links to additional Info:

Learn Photography Master Thread: Lesson 2: Camera specs - What do they mean, and which ones matter to me?

Canon's DSLR naming scheme
Nikon's DSLR naming scheme
« Last edited by Curlyhead on August 10, 2016, 11:42:18 AM »

Author Topic: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread  (Read 379171 times)

Offline whYME

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #420 on: January 23, 2014, 11:44:47 AM »
Don't have a tripod strap.
But I think I should add one to my list now.

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #421 on: January 23, 2014, 11:53:23 AM »
Don't have a tripod strap.
But I think I should add one to my list now.

They're worth their weight in gold.
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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #422 on: January 24, 2014, 11:32:09 AM »
Would you recommend an SLR over Mirrorless?   The only thing I see better about a mirrorless is the ease of changing the settings.
+Better video.
+More portable (Can fit into coat or even pants pocket)

Dan, you missed the 2 most important (in my opinion):
1) Size and portability
2) Ability to adapt virtually any SLR lens (even old cheap ones not compatible with modern mounts)

Video isn't priority and I'm concerned with lens prices. If she really wants to get into it the Nex line will end up costing big bucks.

I love my mirrorless but I still have my SLR with my old lenses I couldn't begin to afford on my nex.

Just not sure for learning which is the way to go.

I use SLR lenses on my mirrorless cameras daily, all you need is a relatively cheap $30 adapter.
The examples I posted earlier in this thread (shown here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=28454.msg670498#msg670498) were taken on the very adapters I'm referring to. Photographers tend to gloss over this as an option because the lenses become fully manual, in other words you have to manually set focus and aperture on the lens, since the camera generally can't interface with the adapter (there are some that do, but that's too complicated to get into here).

While you may have trouble manually focusing on subjects that won't sit still long enough, its actually a great way to learn since you are forced to quickly understand how aperture and exposure work. Many people get DSLRs and leave everything in Auto- which is a great way to get pictures if you aren't interested in the science behind it, but won't really help you learn the technical side of it. So my recommendation would depend on what the person wants to learn.
Do they want to learn the technical side of things first so that they can have full artistic control (cheaper to go with mirrorless)? Or do they want to leave the technical stuff on Auto so that they can focus on composition and framing (have to invest more, and might be better going DSLR)?

If you plan on getting lots of lenses than SLR is the way to go.

I disagree. I have far more lenses for my mirrorless than native DSLR lenses, and spent a heck of a lot less on them!

The 50mm for the Nex costs $300 alone. Sort of frustrating because I know they'd prefer the Nex in many ways.

A 50mm F/1.8 FD lens is about $35. Get a $30 Fotodiox adapter, and you're looking at a $65 investment total. OR spend $30 more and get a 50mm f/1.4, which will give you more control over bokeh and low light. 

Now cue @Mordy and the Metabones ;);D

Ha! Soon we'll be able to finish each other's sentences.

To be fair, I would never suggest a SpeedBooster for someone on a super tight budget. They are amazing and allow things you can't do with even a full frame DSLR native body (gain a stop of light due to condensed photons), but they are NOT CHEAP. I mean, they are cheaper than the difference buying a full frame camera, but you can get a mirrorless dumb-ring adapter for peanuts, and leave the optics and focal length where they are.

I think I mentioned it here before, but I don't recall (and can't find it at the moment- this forum could use better search functionality, no?), but I once recommended a cheap kit to someone who wanted to learn photography basics. It consisted of an Olympus E-PL1 and 50mm F/1.8 OM lens on a $20 Micro 4/3 adapter. The whole kit cost him less than $200, and he went on to take pictures of an event with it that got published.
He's considering getting some native auto lenses now that he's got the hang of how this works. That's how I learned as well, investing in more expensive equipment after I knew what I wanted to do with it.

Which SLR would you recommend at the moment? Canon only :)
Any good deals out right now? Sorry I missed the deal from Amazon a bit ago.

Canon Loyalty Program is the best-bang-for-your-buck. I've mentioned it in the thread somewhere as well, you can score a T2i for around $250 from them (which is more-or-less the t3i without a flip out screen, the same sensor and processor, identical image quality). B&H is a great option as well if you are unsure of your investment, since they have an excellent return policy.
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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #423 on: January 24, 2014, 11:49:11 AM »
This is for someone "looking to get into photography". They do NOT want old lenses, they do NOT want adapters, they do NOT want to focus manually.

They want to get started. They need a nice camera and a nice lens of two, and start out slowly. A manual-everything lens is utterly worthless to them.

For gearheads like us these lenses are amazing and tremendous fun. But we are very much in the minority in this forum. Most people here just want their stuff to work.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #424 on: January 24, 2014, 11:51:44 AM »
This is for someone "looking to get into photography". They do NOT want old lenses, they do NOT want adapters, they do NOT want to focus manually.

They want to get started. They need a nice camera and a nice lens of two, and start out slowly. A manual-everything lens is utterly worthless to them.

For gearheads like us these lenses are amazing and tremendous fun. But we are very much in the minority in this forum. Most people here just want their stuff to work.

That's what I was thinking. You couldn't give me one of those lenses for free
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #425 on: January 24, 2014, 11:54:23 AM »
You couldn't give me one of those lenses for free

But if anyone ever does, feel free to PM me for my shipping address :D
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #426 on: January 24, 2014, 11:55:03 AM »
But if anyone ever does, feel free to PM me for my shipping address :D
It would be my pleasure
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Offline Dan

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #427 on: January 24, 2014, 12:39:31 PM »
+Better video.
+More portable (Can fit into coat or even pants pocket)
Dan, you missed the 2 most important (in my opinion):
1) Size and portability
2) Ability to adapt virtually any SLR lens (even old cheap ones not compatible with modern mounts)
1) Huh?? You even quoted me!
2) Beyond my skill level.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Mordy

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #428 on: January 24, 2014, 12:53:55 PM »
This is for someone "looking to get into photography". They do NOT want old lenses, they do NOT want adapters, they do NOT want to focus manually.

You may be right, but with all due respect shouldn't it be THEIR choice?

They did mention that price was a concern, so I'm offering an rock-bottom option they might not be aware of, to take excellent pictures on the cheap if they are willing to work for it. On that note, I did mention that this might not be a good option for someone who just wants to learn composition and framing first.

I have recommended manual lenses to people who are learning photography (heck, photography classes are still taught in colleges using manual and film, but that's another story), and they have thanked me profusely for it afterwards. Its not for everyone, but saying it isn't for anyone who is starting out might be denying someone from an enlightened technical experience. So excuse me if I blow a raspberry in your general direction. ;)

That's what I was thinking. You couldn't give me one of those lenses for free

Ouch. See, that's just silly. I get it if you don't think it is useful, or maybe too complicated to be worth the investment (my wife hates my manual primes, in the effort of full disclosure). But if you were handed one for free, you wouldn't even want to experiment with it to see what it does?
I'm going to assume it was just a phrase, and not actually literal because it makes me sad to think there are people who just aren't curious in this world. I have a rant on that involving our "dumbing down of society" (people no longer care or are curious how things work because everything is automatic), but I'll save that for a more appropriate point in time. 

But if anyone ever does, feel free to PM me for my shipping address :D

Hey, for all my ranting on this subject we should have to fight for dibs!

On an unrelated note, whYME:
walking short distances where I don't want to detach and reattach it. It feels a little more secure than holding it over my shoulder and carrying out straight out is annoying... (It isn't the most comfortable though so I doubt I'll do it much, just wanted to know my options)

Tripod straps are cool, but if you are moving around alot and just want to eliminate camera shakes, have  you considered a monopod? They are cheap very portable. I love mine.
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Offline Mordy

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #429 on: January 24, 2014, 12:55:30 PM »
1) Huh?? You even quoted me!
2) Beyond my skill level.


ROTFL- whoops. For some strange reason I thought you said price for #1. Maybe because the next few posts were about lenses being more expensive. Sorry!
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #430 on: January 24, 2014, 01:31:45 PM »
Trust me, I am curious about things, but things have to pique your interest.
I love to learn but have very little interest in halachos of medical ethics.
I like sports but have no interest in soccer.
I like technology (and do it for a living) but have little interest in professional photography
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Dan

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #431 on: January 28, 2014, 04:04:19 PM »
Tripod straps are cool, but if you are moving around alot and just want to eliminate camera shakes, have  you considered a monopod? They are cheap very portable. I love mine.
How does a monopod work?
How can a stick support a camera?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Emkay

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #432 on: January 28, 2014, 04:10:14 PM »
How does a monopod work?
How can a stick support a camera?
it dosnt on its own it just eliminates extra shaking.
Heres some reading material :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopod

Offline whYME

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #433 on: January 28, 2014, 04:49:03 PM »
On an unrelated note, whYME:
Tripod straps are cool, but if you are moving around alot and just want to eliminate camera shakes, have  you considered a monopod? They are cheap very portable. I love mine.
My tripod actually has a detachable leg to use as a monopod, but I do need a tripod, a monopod wouldn't really help in this case.

Offline sky121

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #434 on: January 28, 2014, 05:31:34 PM »
My tripod actually has a detachable leg to use as a monopod, but I do need a tripod, a monopod wouldn't really help in this case.

What are you taking pictures of?  Are you 'there' now?
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline whYME

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #435 on: January 28, 2014, 06:06:07 PM »
What are you taking pictures of?  Are you 'there' now?
At the time I was at the grand canyon. Not there now.

Offline Mordy

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #436 on: January 28, 2014, 09:28:53 PM »
How does a monopod work?
How can a stick support a camera?

The idea is to get stability in places that you can't really carry a tripod, by using your body as part of the required 3-leg setup for stability (your feet are two legs, stand with them properly spaced apart and the monopod as the third leg). Usually you'll see them in places like sports and wildlife photography, where it is just impractical to carry around a tripod but handheld shots wouldn't be stable enough.

Once you have one, there are all kinds of interesting things you can with them. I love mine- I've extended it and held it up over my head to get a crowd-down shot, or out the side of a car window to get the wheels and pavement. Heck, I put a flash on the end of one once to hold it out to the side of my subject, and another time I attached a mic and made it into a boom pole for a video shoot. They're a heck of a lot of fun! But no, if the idea is to set it and jump in for a family portrait, it won't work. :)
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #437 on: January 28, 2014, 09:48:17 PM »
I think you have an unreasonable  expectation as to what people are doing to do with this hobby
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Mordy

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #438 on: January 28, 2014, 09:54:25 PM »
I think you have an unreasonable  expectation as to what people are doing to do with this hobby

Spend $10 to get a stick with a tripod mount so they can get pictures while hiking? Maybe you are right. ::eyeroll::
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Offline whYME

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Re: Which Camera Should I Get? Master Thread
« Reply #439 on: January 28, 2014, 10:06:19 PM »
I think you have an unreasonable  expectation as to what people are doing to do with this hobby
Hey, speak for yourself  ;D