MLB Master Thread

[Yonah]

A couple of random thoughts:

- I'm curious to see what happens with Beltran and the Mets. Most of the reports I've read indicate that he won't be punished, but at the very least that's going to be an interesting press conference to open spring training.

- I was listening to Eduardo Perez on the Radio this am, he did color on  both the 17 and 19 series. He sat in the same place for both at Minute Maid (not sure where in the ballpark he was) in 17' he had a monitor to watch the tv feed. In 19' the monitor was there but turned off. He asked the usher to turn it on - the usher told him he wasn't allowed to, they were under strict orders that monitors in view of field personnel needed to be off during the entire game.

- While it's hard to say that not having the sign stealing would've guaranteed their opponents winning the ALCS and WS in 17 and 18, it does guarantee one thing - Yankees and Dodgers fans are never going to shut up about it for the next 3 decades at least.

- I'd have to think that they'll be harsher on Cora, if not for anything else, for the reason he did it with one team, and then imported the whole process to the next team he went to.

- IMHO, there are three reasons why the Astros had to fire Hinch and Luhnow - 1) Are you really going to Hire someone for one year as an interim coach? 2) They embarassed your organization (luhnow multiple times) 3) You need to give the impression to fans, other teams, and your players that you're cleaning house

- I'm surprised Luhnow lasted this long considering he not only had this scandal, but also the password stealing scandal, and the Taubman scandal. Granted, he kept winning, but put a black eye on the franchise.

 

[Ergel]

- While it's hard to say that not having the sign stealing would've guaranteed their opponents winning the ALCS and WS in 17 and 18, it does guarantee one thing - Yankees and Dodgers fans are never going to shut up about it for the next 3 decades at least.

Is this a good time to mention that in the 2017 ALCS the home team won all 7 games?

[shaulyaakov]

Is this a good time to mention that in the 2017 ALCS the home team won all 7 games?

It's more than that. In games 1 and 2, the Yankees lost by 1 run. That means if sign stealing helped thr Astros score even 1 run over those 2 games, the whole series could have gone the Yankees direction.

[Yonah]

Right on cue

Is this a good time to mention that in the 2017 ALCS the home team won all 7 games?

It's more than that. In games 1 and 2, the Yankees lost by 1 run. That means if sign stealing helped thr Astros score even 1 run over those 2 games, the whole series could have gone the Yankees direction.

In all seriousness, as much as this casts doubt on the Astros' Postseason success, this isn't the equivalent of a winning touchdown coming off the board or a winning goal or buzzer-beater being erased. They might still have scored in other ways, they would've deployed pinch hitters and relievers differently (as would have their opponents). 

... and while sign stealing makes it a lot easier and is cheating, and could also help them extend at bats, they still had to hit the ball and put it in play.

[shaulyaakov]

Right on cue

In all seriousness, as much as this casts doubt on the Astros' Postseason success, this isn't the equivalent of a winning touchdown coming off the board or a winning goal or buzzer-beater being erased. They might still have scored in other ways, they would've deployed pinch hitters and relievers differently (as would have their opponents). 

... and while sign stealing makes it a lot easier and is cheating, and could also help them extend at bats, they still had to hit the ball and put it in play.

Look, there's no real way to vacate a championship. But I do think this is a tainted championship. Especially since it's been well documented for years that detecting  tipping pitches was a huge part of this team, especially from Beltran. So now to find out that there was some degree of cheating involved with that is infuriating.

[shaulyaakov]

Boy the Mets wish they could take a mulligan on the Beltran hire. Not only is he named in the report, but he also lied about it after he was named manager.

[Yehuda57]

It's impossible to quantify how much the cheating helped hitters. Aside from hitters getting an advantage, there's also the aspect of the pitchers and catchers who knew stuff was going on focusing on signs and got in their own heads so much it may have affected their pitching. The Yankees were clearly obsessed with it. No one will ever know how much of an effect it had - if any.

[shaulyaakov]

It's impossible to quantify how much the cheating helped hitters. Aside from hitters getting an advantage, there's also the aspect of the pitchers and catchers who knew stuff was going on focusing on signs and got in their own heads so much it may have affected their pitching. The Yankees were clearly obsessed with it. No one will ever know how much of an effect it had - if any.

Right. That's among the reasons why vacating championships is dumb. It's just annoying that the 2020 Astros are barely being hurt by this. The money is meaningless and whatever draft picks they are losing will hurt them maybe in 3-5 years. Sure they lost their manager, but it's arguably irrelevant who the manager is once a basic level of competence is achieved.

[Yehuda57]

Boy the Mets wish they could take a mulligan on the Beltran hire. Not only is he named in the report, but he also lied about it after he was named manager.

Meh, he didn't get punished. The things that made him a good managerial candidate still apply. An apology press conference now, instead of waiting for Spring Training when it can affect the players, will likely blow the whole thing over.

[Redbull3]

MLB decided not to punish players I think it makes sense. First of all, they never would've learned anything from interviews if players knew that by admitting to using the system they might be punished. And secondly it's probably difficult to prove to what extent individual players took advantage of the system. It's much easier to just hold management responsible under the idea that they are responsible for the culture and have a responsibility to know what is going on under their watch. I think it's the only way they could've approached it.

[mercaz1]

MLB decided not to punish players I think it makes sense. First of all, they never would've learned anything from interviews if players knew that by admitting to using the system they might be punished. And secondly it's probably difficult to prove to what extent individual players took advantage of the system. It's much easier to just hold management responsible under the idea that they are responsible for the culture and have a responsibility to know what is going on under their watch. I think it's the only way they could've approached it.

the real issue is that the MLBPA would have kept any punishment in appeals process for a long time so it made sense to just forgo even trying to punish players

[Redbull3]

Cora is gonna be gone there's no question. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he would never manage again. Time heals all wounds and he's a young guy. Hinch will for sure be back to manage someday, I would bet on it. And Luhnow probably gets a second chance too. These aren't lifetime bans.

[Dan]

Cora is gonna be gone there's no question. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he would never manage again. Time heals all wounds and he's a young guy. Hinch will for sure be back to manage someday, I would bet on it. And Luhnow probably gets a second chance too. These aren't lifetime bans.

+1

[shaulyaakov]

+1

Would not put it past MLB to give him a lifetime ban.

I feel like if it were going to be a 1 year suspension plus whatever the red Sox investigation shows, they would have announced the first year yesterday. That they didn't tells me that these penalties will compound into something pretty severe.

[Ergel]

I think Hinch gets hired for 2022 season
Luhnow had a bad look today saying he was just an innocent bystander. He's had multiple issues over the past year. I think for him this is a more long term issue. I don't think he is a GM again for a long time
Cora gets two years and doesn't get a new job till 2024/2025

[shaulyaakov]

I think lunhow lands as a special assistant somewhere. Hinch I'm not sure. If he's viewed as someone worth keeping, not sure why the Astros would just fire him on the spot.

[mercaz1]

I think lunhow lands as a special assistant somewhere. Hinch I'm not sure. If he's viewed as someone worth keeping, not sure why the Astros would just fire him on the spot.

they fired him so the owner can claim he is doing something to clean house as he kept claiming he knew nothing about the sign stealing

[Yonah]

Look, there's no real way to vacate a championship. But I do think this is a tainted championship. Especially since it's been well documented for years that detecting  tipping pitches was a huge part of this team, especially from Beltran. So now to find out that there was some degree of cheating involved with that is infuriating.

Agree with you here - with one caveat - I am assuming by "Tipping Pitches" you mean stealing signs  - there is a huge difference:

- Stealing signs= another player or staff member decodes the signs that the catcher gives the pitcher, and tips off the player.
- Tipping pitches = the pitcher's delivery or the catcher's stance/setup position enable the player to determine what pitch is coming

[shaulyaakov]

Agree with you here - with one caveat - I am assuming by "Tipping Pitches" you mean stealing signs  - there is a huge difference:

- Stealing signs= another player or staff member decodes the signs that the catcher gives the pitcher, and tips off the player.
- Tipping pitches = the pitcher's delivery or the catcher's stance/setup position enable the player to determine what pitch is coming

The Astros bragged about recognizing when pitchers were tipping, specifically Beltran. It's covered in detail in "Astroball". To find out that some or all of that was actually illegal sign stealing is damming.

[Yonah]

The Astros bragged about recognizing when pitchers were tipping, specifically Beltran. It's covered in detail in "Astroball". To find out that some or all of that was actually illegal sign stealing is damming.

They definitely have lost all credibility in saying they could identify 'tipping pitches', that's for sure - no matter how true it is.