Author Topic: MLB Master Thread  (Read 596640 times)

Online TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22077
  • Total likes: 7130
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2520 on: November 02, 2017, 10:54:00 AM »
I think the glaring error was letting Darvish pitch
FTFY ? :)

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2521 on: November 02, 2017, 10:58:16 AM »
FTFY ? :)
Repost

The first time or the second time?

But all this "Darvish should not have started" is hogwash. He's an incredible pitcher and he got extremely unlucky. He's the ace on most other teams.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2522 on: November 02, 2017, 10:58:54 AM »
Repost

But all this "Darvish should not have started" is hogwash. He's an incredible pitcher and he got extremely unlucky. He's the ace on most other teams.
Correct. Well, not the unlucky part, he got beat. But sometimes that happens
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Yankee123

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 364
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2523 on: November 02, 2017, 10:59:43 AM »
Repost

But all this "Darvish should not have started" is hogwash. He's an incredible pitcher and he got extremely unlucky. He's the ace on most other teams.

agreed

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2524 on: November 02, 2017, 01:27:13 PM »
Correct. Well, not the unlucky part, he got beat. But sometimes that happens

First inning one run scores on the error - he only gave up one hard hit ball.

Second inning McCann struck out - terrible call by the ump - before he walked. Then the McCullers ground out the infield wasn't in causing the run to score.

Without bad luck, he's heading into the 3rd down 1-0. He also didn't have his slider - not denying that, and I did say he should never have been left in to face Springer, as he didn't have his best stuff. But he *was* unlucky.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2525 on: November 02, 2017, 01:35:06 PM »
He's the ace on most other teams.
What are you smoking?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: MLB
« Reply #2527 on: November 02, 2017, 02:07:59 PM »
I think the glaring error was letting Darvish pitch to Springer.
I didn't see many hard hit balls, but he still didn't seem right. I said at time I would leave him in though. I didn't like my chances with Morrow in that spot - Morrow having been used in all 7 games this series, only the second after Dalton Knowles! I don't blame roberts there - tough call. Bigger problem to me is lack of dominant reliever beside Jansen to use in that spot. Like Pedro Baez who wasn't even on the roster who had a mixed bag year but was dominant in the past. Roberts did best with what he had. Thought he managed a good game. Tip your cap to springer, he rose to the occasion.
Caveat, apparently darvish was tipping his pitches - if true and honeycutt noticed that and roberts didn't act on it - that's a problem. If it wasn't noticed - more of a problem.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2528 on: November 02, 2017, 03:03:41 PM »
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

Please list the 15-16 teams hes not the ace
What is that graph you posted?
He is 10-12 on the best team in baseball. Put him on an average team and he is 7-15 at best.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2529 on: November 02, 2017, 03:18:59 PM »
What is that graph you posted?
He is 10-12 on the best team in baseball. Put him on an average team and he is 7-15 at best.

A) Pitcher wins are not only an ineffective way to judge a pitcher, they might be the worst way. And your comment explains why (partially).
B) You know he was traded mid season?
C) You are always one to say, "answer the question!" Can you name 15 teams where Darvish would not be the ace?

The "graph" I linked to is a list of starting pitchers this season. Sort them as you wish by clicking on a stat.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2530 on: November 02, 2017, 03:30:33 PM »
The "graph" I linked to is a list of starting pitchers this season. Sort them as you wish by clicking on a stat.
I did by W/L.  :)
Yes I know he was traded and you can't just dismiss W/L record.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2531 on: November 02, 2017, 04:10:34 PM »
I did by W/L.  :)
Yes I know he was traded and you can't just dismiss W/L record.

What is the purpose of the W/L record? If it is to say how good or bad a pitcher is, there are dozens of more effective ways to judge that. If it is to see how often he helped his team win - it doesn't do that.

This is not a "stats vs no stats" argument. W/L *is* a stat. A stupid, arbitrary one. And therefore yes, I can dismiss it.

All this is besides the point. You still haven't answered the question.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: MLB
« Reply #2532 on: November 02, 2017, 04:12:07 PM »
What is the purpose of the W/L record? If it is to say how good or bad a pitcher is, there are dozens of more effective ways to judge that. If it is to see how often he helped his team win - it doesn't do that.

This is not a "stats vs no stats" argument. W/L *is* a stat. A stupid, arbitrary one. And therefore yes, I can dismiss it.

All this is besides the point. You still haven't answered the question.
Since when do the goalposts need to make sense as long as you have them?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2533 on: November 02, 2017, 04:22:24 PM »
Since when do the goalposts need to make sense as long as you have them?
Wrong thread.  >:(
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2534 on: November 02, 2017, 04:26:36 PM »
stupid, arbitrary one
What is this? I hope it is not your argument for W/L doesn't matter.

I need time to answer your question. The first eight teams (playoff) I looked at he is not the ace.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2535 on: November 02, 2017, 04:30:07 PM »
What is this? I hope it is not your argument for W/L doesn't matter.

I need time to answer your question. The first eight teams (playoff) I looked at he is not the ace.

It's not my argument, it is one of thousands of examples. *You* made a stronger argument when you brought it up in the first place.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2536 on: November 02, 2017, 04:41:55 PM »
It's not my argument, it is one of thousands of examples. *You* made a stronger argument when you brought it up in the first place.
Yes you can throw a 1 hitter and lose. Yes you can give up 10 runs and win. SO WHAT!!! Show me someone who consistently throws 1 hitters and I will show you a 30 game winner. Show me someone who consistently gives up 10 runs and I will show you someone who is no longer around. W/L is just one tool, not the only one.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: MLB
« Reply #2537 on: November 02, 2017, 04:51:45 PM »
Yes you can throw a 1 hitter and lose. Yes you can give up 10 runs and win. SO WHAT!!! Show me someone who consistently throws 1 hitters and I will show you a 30 game winner. Show me someone who consistently gives up 10 runs and I will show you someone who is no longer around. W/L is just one tool, not the only one.
What information about a pitcher's performance does it tell you that you can't get from other stats?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: MLB
« Reply #2538 on: November 02, 2017, 04:58:25 PM »
What information about a pitcher's performance does it tell you that you can't get from other stats?
Not following.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14679
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: MLB
« Reply #2539 on: November 02, 2017, 05:14:28 PM »
Yes you can throw a 1 hitter and lose. Yes you can give up 10 runs and win. SO WHAT!!! Show me someone who consistently throws 1 hitters and I will show you a 30 game winner. Show me someone who consistently gives up 10 runs and I will show you someone who is no longer around. W/L is just one tool, not the only one.
I love how you articulate how stupid it is and follow it with a "so what?" Exactly-what-you-said-what!

Let's do an experiment. Just randomly looking at this year's pitching leaders, I've picked out a few pitching lines:

ERA   G   CG   IP     H     R    ER   HR   BB   SO
4.16   32   1   179.2  181  84    83   27   58   134
3.86   31   0   186.2  159  83    80   27   58   209
2.98   31   0   193.1  150  73    64   21   51   230

Rank the above seasons and match them to their win records:

14-6
10-12
18-11

Now these two look like the same pitcher, right?

ERA   G   IP     H     R    ER   HR   BB   SO
3.92   31   186.0  201  93    81   20   37   130
3.90   33   191.1  204  90    83   20   55   124

One is 17-9 the other 10-13

Sure, it's a tool, but more like the human kind than a hammer.