Author Topic: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket  (Read 21364 times)

Offline chuchem

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2323
  • Total likes: 30
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 03:45:58 PM »
No let me correct it, besides for the obvious chillul hashem, i think you are stealing! A baby only has a right to sit in business when paying and you didnt pay. You might say i paid eco, so whats the diffrence, but thats the rule. If you pay economy and sneak into business its also stealing, i dont see a big diffrence over here. Shtick is one thing, but this is chillul hashem and gneiva. I dont think you should brag with this?!
I am happy to know what the other guys think, if they agree with me!

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2010, 03:48:42 PM »
No let me correct it, besides for the obvious chillul hashem, i think you are stealing! A baby only has a right to sit in business when paying and you didnt pay. You might say i paid eco, so whats the diffrence, but thats the rule. If you pay economy and sneak into business its also stealing, i dont see a big diffrence over here. Shtick is one thing, but this is chillul hashem and gneiva. I dont think you should brag with this?!
I am happy to know what the other guys think, if they agree with me!
I disagree.
If you sneak into business that is stealing.  You are using up a valuable seat, eating valuable food, and drinking valuable drinks.

Bringing a baby into business is at worst a case of zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser.  It doesn't make any difference to the airline if that baby is in coach, business, or first.  It's not taking up a seat or food, etc.

If I had to pay $1,700 to bring an infant with us I would definitely try to find another way to do it...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline deals

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2009
  • Posts: 2624
  • Total likes: 13
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2010, 04:02:07 PM »
I disagree.
If you sneak into business that is stealing.  You are using up a valuable seat, eating valuable food, and drinking valuable drinks.

Bringing a baby into business is at worst a case of zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser.  It doesn't make any difference to the airline if that baby is in coach, business, or first.  It's not taking up a seat or food, etc.

If I had to pay $1,700 to bring an infant with us I would definitely try to find another way to do it...


soory dan for the first time i totally disagree

Offline steve2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2077
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: outside some Club
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2010, 04:03:22 PM »
I disagree.
If you sneak into business that is stealing.  You are using up a valuable seat, eating valuable food, and drinking valuable drinks.

Bringing a baby into business is at worst a case of zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser.  It doesn't make any difference to the airline if that baby is in coach, business, or first.  It's not taking up a seat or food, etc.

If I had to pay $1,700 to bring an infant with us I would definitely try to find another way to do it...


 therefore its OK to sneak into Biz if I wont eat or drink anything that I wouldnt get in coach? if by the time they close the door they didnt sell that seat they arent going to, so I didnt deprive them of anything

 as for bringing the baby up there w/o having paid how will that be accomplished? Give it to someone else at checkin to say its theirs , better hope they have the same last name as you do, as even a baby needs a passport.

 I also dont think its so simple to say zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser, then I should be able to walk into any store pick up a newspaper read it put it back and walkout, OK B&N and Borders excluded.
 
 either pay up, sit in coach or take a nanny along and have the baby and nanny sit in coach

 An Airline has its rules dont like them dont Fly Them, Rationalizing why its OK not to pay what they have set as their T&Cs is stealing plain and simple.

Offline steve2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2077
  • Total likes: 8
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: outside some Club
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2010, 04:13:08 PM »
I can't imagine once the baby's on board they would force it not to sit with the parents. Think of the PR nightmare. They would be pissed, but they're not gonna separate a baby from the parents

 Ive been on flights where the couple brought their kid under 5 up front from sitting in coach with the other children and the FA simply asked are U gonna pay in cash or CC? Other times where it was aperson with a cast on her whole leg. She said but both seats are empty and I need the room, the FAs said no problem it will cost you..., she hobbled back to coach

 more likely then not the FAs might tell them decide who will remain up front and who is gonna go back and sit with the baby, they have atotal acct of how many are suppose to be Up front and how many in the back.

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6812
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 04:38:52 PM »
Ive been on flights where the couple brought their kid under 5 up front from sitting in coach with the other children and the FA simply asked are U gonna pay in cash or CC?
An infant isn't a 5 yo old
more likely then not the FAs might tell them decide who will remain up front and who is gonna go back and sit with the baby
In which case I would ask her "are you gonna refund my ticket in cash or CC"
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 04:45:07 PM »
more likely then not the FAs might tell them decide who will remain up front and who is gonna go back and sit with the baby, they have atotal acct of how many are suppose to be Up front and how many in the back.
I'd bet you with 100 to 1 odds that if you have 2 J tickets and an infant that you somehow have a Y ticket for (shouldn't be too hard to do even without involving other people) that they don't kick you out.  Most likely nobody will say a thing and even if they do you'll still have a ticket to show them.

I understand people will disagree with me here and that's fine, it's just my opinion.

But if you can't differentiate between an adult sneaking from Y into J and 2 J passengers bringing a lap infant with them into J then I don't know what to tell you.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:48:53 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chuchem

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2323
  • Total likes: 30
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 05:01:59 PM »
Dan, se nehene vese loi choser is not as simple as you make it. Besides there is chilul hashem and dine demalchuse dine. So its not that easy. Yes it sucks to pay more, but that life. I also would try to avoid it. (It was not 1700 Dollars extra but 200 as writen) There is shtick and there is stealing. You cant just put a third guy in a room and say snvl''c. I dont think to many guys will disagree for me for once

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6812
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 05:05:22 PM »
Dan, se nehene vese loi choser is not as simple as you make it. Besides there is chilul hashem and dine demalchuse dine. So its not that easy. Yes it sucks to pay more, but that life. I also would try to avoid it. (It was not 1700 Dollars extra but 200 as writen) There is shtick and there is stealing. You cant just put a third guy in a room and say snvl''c. I dont think to many guys will disagree for me for once
True. ZNVZLC is only if the person agrees. Bes Din can force the guy to agree, and after the fact, the owner can't charge, but lchatchila it's assur. But I'm not positive that's the issue
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2010, 05:13:00 PM »
Dan, se nehene vese loi choser is not as simple as you make it. Besides there is chilul hashem and dine demalchuse dine. So its not that easy. Yes it sucks to pay more, but that life. I also would try to avoid it. (It was not 1700 Dollars extra but 200 as writen) There is shtick and there is stealing. You cant just put a third guy in a room and say snvl''c. I dont think to many guys will disagree for me for once
Let's take a poll: You're on an F ticket and it would be $1,700 to add an infant.  Is everyone here saying they would pay it rather than try a creative workaround?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline mordys

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2009
  • Posts: 187
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2010, 05:15:34 PM »
IIRC, it's clear that zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser does not apply to a situaton where the owner charges for such services, i.e. sneaking into a hotel room when it is empty to spend the night and then cleaning up after yourself. That would apply here.
Besides this is a case where the airline is chossur- the biz class section is most probably less enjoyable for others with an infant and the FA's have to spend more time dealing with the results.
Somebody mentioned getting an infant on with a "special tariff" fare- anyone follow up on this?

Offline chuchem

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2323
  • Total likes: 30
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2010, 05:22:40 PM »
Let's take a poll: You're on an F ticket and it would be $1,700 to add an infant.  Is everyone here saying they would pay it rather than try a creative workaround?

creative workaround = booking a economy ticket and sneeking him into business?
I dont want to pay for a hotel room, so I will sneek into a empty room, is this also a creative workaround?

I am really surprised superflyer is still quiet on this! ;-)

Offline Eli

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 1491
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Ir Hakodesh
  • Programs: Starwood Platinum, Priority Club Platinum, Fairmont Premier, Avis First, Star Alliance Gold, bmi Gold and A"A Lifetime Gold
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2010, 05:28:33 PM »
Wow, a lot of posts since I started this. I can't believe I was so unaware. People don't realize this and suddenly 4 days before the flight, or worse, at check-in, they are forced to shell out a fortune of money for the 2-month old! That is insane that airlines get away with charging so much money! A $150 charge on an award or paid ticket I can understand, but how do you determine 10% of the price? What if when I booked my award tickets were $3,500 and now at check-in tickets are $7,000??

I think voices need to be heard about this issue. It's time the madness stops.
-Eli

Offline chuchem

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2323
  • Total likes: 30
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2010, 05:34:32 PM »
Eli

I agree with you, they should charge 10% of the miles or only the fees like miles and more. But there is no reason to wait and book the infant ticket only 4 days in advance or at the airport.
The airlines just claim, we dont do infant miles tickets so we have to book them the regular way.
I know its mad.
But that still does not justify the "creativ workaround" in my opinion.

Offline elikay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 5401
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2010, 05:36:43 PM »
IIRC, it's clear that zeh neheneh v'zeh lo choser does not apply to a situaton where the owner charges for such services, i.e. sneaking into a hotel room when it is empty to spend the night and then cleaning up after yourself. That would apply here.
Besides this is a case where the airline is chossur- the biz class section is most probably less enjoyable for others with an infant and the FA's have to spend more time dealing with the results.
Somebody mentioned getting an infant on with a "special tariff" fare- anyone follow up on this?
+1

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2010, 05:39:22 PM »
creative workaround = booking a economy ticket and sneeking him into business?
I dont want to pay for a hotel room, so I will sneek into a empty room, is this also a creative workaround?

I am really surprised superflyer is still quiet on this! ;-)
I don't see the 2 situations as being equivalent at all.

A better (but also imperfect) moshul would be that you are paying for a hotel room that limits you to 2 guests.
Do you sneak your baby in or do you fess up and pay?

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2010, 05:41:36 PM »
It's also worth noting that the carrier doing the flying is not making anything on the infant ticket.
I believe that only the ticketing carrier collects and pockets the money in the case of an infant.

Which is why if AC books you on CO you only pay $100 but if CO books you on AC you may be on the hook for $1,000.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2010, 05:42:51 PM »
Wow, a lot of posts since I started this. I can't believe I was so unaware. People don't realize this and suddenly 4 days before the flight, or worse, at check-in, they are forced to shell out a fortune of money for the 2-month old! That is insane that airlines get away with charging so much money! A $150 charge on an award or paid ticket I can understand, but how do you determine 10% of the price? What if when I booked my award tickets were $3,500 and now at check-in tickets are $7,000??

I think voices need to be heard about this issue. It's time the madness stops.
Some airlines charge 10% of the current price, others always charge 10% of the full fare.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chuchem

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 2323
  • Total likes: 30
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2010, 05:45:46 PM »
I don't see the 2 situations as being equivalent at all.

A better (but also imperfect) moshul would be that you are paying for a hotel room that limits you to 2 guests.
Do you sneak your baby in or do you fess up and pay?

If they charge for the baby and you sneek it in its gneiva. I dont care how you look at it. Jump on a train and dont pay, they are also not loosing out. Come on, if you want to do it, your choice, but lets not say its ok and call it a "creative workaround" You are fooling yourself to make yourself feel ok with it.



Offline MLM

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2010
  • Posts: 1206
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
  • Programs: AA LT PLAT, UA LT PP, FPC LT PLAT, HH DIAMOND,
Re: Travelling with an infant on an award or paid ticket
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2010, 05:47:48 PM »
On Elal they forced us to pay 10% of a full fare one way business class $350. I had biz one way tickets through AA mileage. On the way back I found someone in coach on my flight and added the baby to their reservation and only paid 10% of that $90.

I just wanna add. Elal told me before the flight that they would only charge me for the price of a round trip business class ticket. At the airport they said they cannot do it. Later on I got $150 back from Elal the difference between 10% rt biz and oneway.