The halachic propriety of selling airline miles and credit card points

[robesrones]

In a letter to the editor of this week's Mishpacha magazine, the writer alleged that poskim have stated their opinion that selling miles and credit card points is assur. A dayan told me over Shabbas that the issue is that the airlines and credit cards state in their Terms and Conditions that the points are forbidden to be sold. This, in effect, means that the points were given al tenai, and using them in a way that violates the terms and conditions means that you are using something that no longer belongs to you, which is gezel.

I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to a thread that addresses this and other related issues, specifically about selling points.

Thank you very much.

[churnbabychurn]

In a letter to the editor of this week's Mishpacha magazine, the writer alleged that poskim have stated their opinion that selling miles and credit card points is assur. A dayan told me over Shabbas that the issue is that the airlines and credit cards state in their Terms and Conditions that the points are forbidden to be sold. This, in effect, means that the points were al tenai, and using them in a way that violates the terms and conditions means that you are using something that no longer belongs to you, which is gezel.

I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to a thread that addresses this and other related issues, specifically about selling points.

Thank you very much.

Given al tenai? really?

[Ergel]

Given al tenai? really?

Why is that so shocking?

[Emkay]

In a letter to the editor of this week's Mishpacha magazine, the writer alleged that poskim have stated their opinion that selling miles and credit card points is assur.

just as a side note, there was no mention of those specific things in the letter.

[Name Changed]

Wouldn't it have to be a t'nai cuful?

[mnscout]

In a letter to the editor of this week's Mishpacha magazine, the writer alleged that poskim have stated their opinion that selling miles and credit card points is assur. A dayan told me over Shabbas that the issue is that the airlines and credit cards state in their Terms and Conditions that the points are forbidden to be sold. This, in effect, means that the points were given al tenai, and using them in a way that violates the terms and conditions means that you are using something that no longer belongs to you, which is gezel.

I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to a thread that addresses this and other related issues, specifically about selling points.

Thank you very much.

Direct you I can't, but you absolutely cannot legally sell them, trade them, or gift them, and by legally I mean when the travel provider in question doesn't get his cut. There are ways, like with approved Points.com, but it rarely is a good deal. There are also plentiful illegal ways, but you do run a risk of getting your account frozen and the reminder of your miles confiscated.

[benchik]

Direct you I can't, but you absolutely cannot legally sell them, trade them, or gift them, and by legally I mean when the travel provider in question doesn't get his cut. There are ways, like with approved Points.com, but it rarely is a good deal. There are also plentiful illegal ways, but you do run a risk of getting your account frozen and the reminder of your miles confiscated.

Not at all.

It is not illegal to sell miles. It is against the airlines' terms and conditions.

That's an important distinction.

[AJK]

It is not illegal to sell miles. It is against the airlines' terms and conditions.

That's an important distinction.

I agree, but it may not be nearly as important in the context of halacha.

[Lou Bob]

Not at all.

It is not illegal to sell miles. It is against the airlines' terms and conditions.

That's an important distinction.

but if I give you something on condition that only you can use it/benefit from it, can you sell it halachically? You did agree to the terms

[Excalibur]

I've been told mutar by two poskim

[mow]

Which 2

[AJK]

I've been told mutar by two poskim.

Which 2?

FTFY

[robesrones]

does anybody know of a tachlis thread on this ?

[SamKey]

Wouldn't it have to be a t'nai cuful?

No

[dirah]

In a letter to the editor of this week's Mishpacha magazine, the writer alleged that poskim have stated their opinion that selling miles and credit card points is assur. A dayan told me over Shabbas that the issue is that the airlines and credit cards state in their Terms and Conditions that the points are forbidden to be sold. This, in effect, means that the points were given al tenai, and using them in a way that violates the terms and conditions means that you are using something that no longer belongs to you, which is gezel.
I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to a thread that addresses this and other related issues, specifically about selling points.
Thank you very much.

Interesting.
Kinyanim and Ba'alus don't apply to intangibles.
[That is why the idea of intellectual property in Halacha is far from simple.]
And I think it likely can be argued that airline points are intangibles.

[CountValentine]

It is really interesting the way we get around things.

[Dan]

Airline points never belong to you.

[Ergel]

Airline points never belong to you.

And therefore...?

[dirah]

It is really interesting the way we get around things.

Let me be clear.
I am not advocating getting around things.
If according to the terms and conditions you shouldn't be doing this, then you shouldn't be doing this.
Being a mench is also abiding by the law of the land (even in those areas where Halacha doesn't require it, it doesn't forbid it either,) and similarly, abiding by the terms and conditions of programs you sign up for.
[If anyone disagrees, continue that discussion in "Is it ethical" - I don't check that thread, but CV will set  you straight .]
I am just discussing whether it is Halachic or not.

[dirah]

And don't say your way of answering a shailah is the only way

Sorry, didn't mean it that way ... I corrected it.