Author Topic: The halachic propriety of selling airline miles and credit card points  (Read 12068 times)

Offline Ergel

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Sorry, didn't mean it that way ... I corrected it.
Fair enough
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Online CountValentine

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I am just discussing whether it is Halachic or not.
If Jewish Laws allow this then I stand by:
It is really interesting the way we get around things.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline dirah

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If Jewish Laws allow this then I stand by:
Wrong, buddy.
Imagine the law of in the USA was that intangibles cannot be "owned" or "transacted" upon, and that any contracts involving the ownership or transfer of such items was non-binding.
Would a contract stipulating to the contrary mean anything to you?
No.

Offline dirah

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Wrong, buddy.
Imagine the law of in the USA was that intangibles cannot be "owned" or "transacted" upon, and that any contracts involving the ownership or transfer of such items was non-binding.
Would a contract stipulating to the contrary mean anything to you?
No.
Anyone know that story/joke about two gues in jail ultimately because they were born in the wrong year?

Offline TDweck

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This is the most psak I've heard in a long time  :( I need to get my act together

Offline meshugener

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Online CountValentine

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Would a contract stipulating to the contrary mean anything to you?
No.
I guess you don't want me to answer?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline dirah

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I guess you don't want me to answer?
If you think otherwise, go for it!
I am curious to know how you would explain why something legally non-binding is legally binding.
Nimna Hanimnaos.
[There you go; a donation to that other thread of  yours :D]

Offline churnbabychurn

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Airline points never belong to you.
+1

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If you think otherwise, go for it!
I am curious to know how you would explain why something legally non-binding is legally binding.
Nimna Hanimnaos.
[There you go; a donation to that other thread of  yours :D]
I made the assumption that a large part of Jewish law is based on religion and such should be held to a higher standard. If you agree to the terms then violate them it is a no brainer for me. Remember I am just a simple person.

If I see that term (Nimna Hanimnaos) a few times it will make it to my thread.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline Ergel

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+1


And therefore...?
There is a halacha, kol haover al daas baal habayis nikrah gazlan. If you are a guest in someone's home and he gives you food and days you can't give it to someone else and you do-you are a gazlan. why is this different?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 09:52:40 PM by Ergel »
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Offline dirah

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I made the assumption that a large part of Jewish law is based on religion and such should be held to a higher standard. If you agree to the terms then violate them it is a no brainer for me. Remember I am just a simple person.
OK, I see where you are coming from.
Jewish Law includes what I guess we could refer to as civil/commercial law.
The reason this is part of Jewish Law is because there is a religious mandate to ensure that cases are adjudicated appropriately.
Thus, there is a whole section of Jewish Law (commonly referred to as Choshen Mishpat) dealing with commerce, with a strong emphasis on what is binding and what is not binding.

But you do have a point.
The classic case is that if you verbally commit to a business deal, it is non-binding in Jewish Law.
By the same token, there is an expectation, even a mandate, under Jewish Law for one to stick to one's verbal commitments - even though it is non-binding and cannot be enforced in a Jewish court (Beis Din).

So, with regards to the miles situation, I am saying that the airlines terms and conditions might not be considered binding under Jewish Law.
You are suggesting that Jewish Law would consider it appropriate to respect those agreements nonetheless.
And, I could agree with that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 09:52:26 PM by dirah »

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So, with regards to the miles situation, I am saying that the airlines terms and conditions might not be considered binding under Jewish Law.
You are suggesting that Jewish Law would consider it appropriate to respect those agreements nonetheless.
And, I could agree with that.
+1 now back to regular scheduled program.

P.S. That term got me thinking so it will make my thread.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline churnbabychurn

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There is a halacha, kol haover al daas baal habayis nikrah gazlan. If you are a guest in someone's home and he gives you food and days you can't give it to someone else and you do-you are a gazlan. why is this different?
I am not passing an opinion on this matter, only making sure that OP realizes that the laws of contracts/kinyonim/tenoim/are complex and are very difficult to practically apply to airline miles.
If a posek wants to pasken on this issue he must thoroughly study the T&c AND the minhag hamedina and have working legal knowledge of these things. I would like to see a very detailed pesak from a mumche in choshen mishpot.
Not some "I spoke to my LOR he said it sounds like its wrong".

{a guest who accepts food either owns the food (or owns it al tenai). (see poskim re lochem re matzo by a bal habayis. Again nothing in choshen mishpat is ever black and white, EVER.)

Offline aj26

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Btw, the article in Mishpacha never mentions buying and selling miles. It just says a lot of things discussed on ddf and dansdeals.com are halachikly questionable

Offline Centurion

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Offline SamKey

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Why?
mechira doesn't need it just like a mekach taos (att CV :P ) doesn't need a tnai. It is spoken abt in many places to name a few כתובות נו עה ב"ק קי

Offline dirah

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mechira doesn't need it just like a mekach taos (att CV :P ) doesn't need a tnai. It is spoken abt in many places to name a few כתובות נו עה ב"ק קי
Can't make head and tales of what you wrote... maybe explain.

Tnai Koful by Mechira is a famous Machlokes Haroshnim.
Not sure what Mekach Taus had to do with Tnai, these are two different things entirely. Mekach Taus is when the quality of the actual merchandise doesn't measure up to the standards of the purchase. The sale is revoked because what you got is not what you paid for - simple as that - nothing to do with a Tnai.

A Tnai is an optional stipulation which usually has nothing to do with the ((quality of the) merchandise itself. And, if not stipulated properly, the Tnai is void and the sale stands.

Offline satturn

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Offline aussiebochur

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There is a halacha, kol haover al daas baal habayis nikrah gazlan. If you are a guest in someone's home and he gives you food and days you can't give it to someone else and you do-you are a gazlan. why is this different?
Lol! Is a hotel with free breakfast similar to a home? ;)