Author Topic: Vicious Guy/Circle  (Read 5611 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Vicious Guy/Circle
« on: July 19, 2010, 04:34:48 AM »
Vicious Guy/Circle

Statements:

1) Every 'ayd' (witness) has to be (potentially) an 'ayd she'ato yochoyl lehazeemo', otherwise they are not accepted to begin with.

2) An 'ayd' that wants to give witness on the position/look of the moon, for the sake of 'ibur hachodesh', is allowed to desecrate shabbos.

Question:

Considering the above statements, every 'ayd' that is desecrating shabbos in order to testify by bes din, if they are being 'mazemd', that would mean that the 'ayd' (who knows that he is lying), was desecrating shabbos 'bemayzid', so they are  'resho'i'm' and there 'aydus' is nullified to begin with, so if its nullified, the 'ayday hazomo' are obsolete.

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 05:44:50 AM »
I'm not sure I understand.
In every case of aidim zommim, they themselves know that that are lying.
Same place that says "keep shabbos" says, " don't bear false witness", so by lying they become reshoim.
The idea youre suggesting would therefore apply to every case of aidim zommim.

What am I missing?

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 06:13:29 AM »
I'm not sure I understand.
In every case of aidim zommim, they themselves know that that are lying.
Same place that says "keep shabbos" says, " don't bear false witness", so by lying they become reshoim.
The idea youre suggesting would therefore apply to every case of aidim zommim.

What am I missing?


you are right, but what I wanted to say is that in a case where they were mechale shabbos (as we see later on), that means that they were posule aydim, and thus couldn't be mazim.

In other words, how can any ayd be mechalel shabos for kidush levono, as he becomes an ayd she'i ato yochol lehazimo.

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 06:48:14 AM »
Woops, I just realized that its Tisha Bav (for me).
Any discussion on the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza, perhaps?

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 02:42:31 PM »
Vicious Guy/Circle

Statements:

1) Every 'ayd' (witness) has to be (potentially) an 'ayd she'ato yochoyl lehazeemo', otherwise they are not accepted to begin with.

2) An 'ayd' that wants to give witness on the position/look of the moon, for the sake of 'ibur hachodesh', is allowed to desecrate shabbos.

Question:

Considering the above statements, every 'ayd' that is desecrating shabbos in order to testify by bes din, if they are being 'mazemd', that would mean that the 'ayd' (who knows that he is lying), was desecrating shabbos 'bemayzid', so they are  'resho'i'm' and there 'aydus' is nullified to begin with, so if its nullified, the 'ayday hazomo' are obsolete.
If there's no aydim on the chillul shabbos he doesn't have a din rasha benogeia bes din, ain adam maisim atzmo rasha. And it could be ain hachi nami, if there's aydim to the chillul shabbos, it's aydus shein ata yachol lehazimam. P.S. for those wondering why i'm posting on such an old topic, Superflyer linked to it today.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 02:48:41 PM »
Vicious Guy/Circle

Statements:

1) Every 'ayd' (witness) has to be (potentially) an 'ayd she'ato yochoyl lehazeemo', otherwise they are not accepted to begin with.

2) An 'ayd' that wants to give witness on the position/look of the moon, for the sake of 'ibur hachodesh', is allowed to desecrate shabbos.

Question:

Considering the above statements, every 'ayd' that is desecrating shabbos in order to testify by bes din, if they are being 'mazemd', that would mean that the 'ayd' (who knows that he is lying), was desecrating shabbos 'bemayzid', so they are  'resho'i'm' and there 'aydus' is nullified to begin with, so if its nullified, the 'ayday hazomo' are obsolete.
veod yesh lomar, meheicha teisi benogeia other dinim we trust the eidim zomimin, lemashal if there were eidim to the claimed chilul shabbos with hasraah, i don't think we'll kill the nizamim, bec. the din of eidim zomimin, es ken zayn, was said legabey that eidus we believe the zomimin, so lefi zeh, the zomemin won't be believed that they were lying bemayzid, legabay chillul shabbos, so they wouldn't have a din rasha, so their eidus was valid, so their yachol lehazimam. vedo"k. :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:52:18 PM by Lamdan »
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2012, 06:10:23 AM »
veod yesh lomar, meheicha teisi benogeia other dinim we trust the eidim zomimin, lemashal if there were eidim to the claimed chilul shabbos with hasraah, i don't think we'll kill the nizamim, bec. the din of eidim zomimin, es ken zayn, was said legabey that eidus we believe the zomimin, so lefi zeh, the zomemin won't be believed that they were lying bemayzid, legabay chillul shabbos, so they wouldn't have a din rasha, so their eidus was valid, so their yachol lehazimam. vedo"k. :)

didn't understand that part.

Offline mercaz1

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 08:58:43 AM »
veod yesh lomar, meheicha teisi benogeia other dinim we trust the eidim zomimin, lemashal if there were eidim to the claimed chilul shabbos with hasraah, i don't think we'll kill the nizamim, bec. the din of eidim zomimin, es ken zayn, was said legabey that eidus we believe the zomimin, so lefi zeh, the zomemin won't be believed that they were lying bemayzid, legabay chillul shabbos, so they wouldn't have a din rasha, so their eidus was valid, so their yachol lehazimam. vedo"k. :)
there are more yeshivish words in this post than i have seen or said in about 5 years

Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 06:46:51 AM »
2) An 'ayd' that wants to give witness on the position/look of the moon, for the sake of 'ibur hachodesh', is allowed to desecrate shabbos.
Just saw this thread.
I believe your founding premise is wrong.
The Halacha is that an Eyd who ALREADY SAW moon can be Mechallel Shabbos to travel to Beis Din.
[See R"H 21b, and Rambam Kiddush Hachodesh 3:2.]
I am not aware of any Halacha allowing one to be be Mechallel Shabbos IN ORDER to see the new moon.

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 05:38:35 PM »
Just saw this thread.
I believe your founding premise is wrong.
The Halacha is that an Eyd who ALREADY SAW moon can be Mechallel Shabbos to travel to Beis Din.
[See R"H 21b, and Rambam Kiddush Hachodesh 3:2.]
I am not aware of any Halacha allowing one to be be Mechallel Shabbos IN ORDER to see the new moon.

Didn't formulate it correctly, but that's what I meant.

Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 08:25:19 PM »
Didn't formulate it correctly, but that's what I meant.
If so, what is the question?
At the moment when they (claim that they) saw the Eydus they were not yet Balei Aveira.
So it is Eydus Sheattoh Yochol L'Hazimah.
It is true that the Eidim can no longer be made Zomemim if they became Balei Aveira between when they saw the Eydus and when they were Me'id in Beis Din.
But the actual Eydus is Eydus Sheattoh Yochol L'Hazimah.

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 09:31:39 PM »
Why were they not baalei aveiro (talking about them using the facility of chilul shabbos)?

They knew that they were lying, so obviously the chilul shabbes was not permissible + bemayzid.

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 12:37:42 AM »
there are more yeshivish words in this post than i have seen or said in about 5 years
Lol
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Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 07:32:55 AM »
I reread your question, and I don’t think I understood it the first time. I think this is what you are asking:
If Kat Alef travelled on Shabbos in order to testify in B”D, and afterwards Kat Beis came and were Mazim Kat Alef. That would mean that Kat Alef were Mechalel Shabbos B’Meyzid and are Reshoim. This means that Kat Alef were Pesullim L'Eidus at the time that they were Me'id in B"D, and obviously cannot become Muzomim.

If that is your question, then I propose that the Minchas Chinuch (Mitzvah 4) has a much bigger question, whose answers are good for your question as well.

Question:
There is no Din Hazomoh by Kiddush Hachodesh at all. [See Rambam Kiddush Hachodesh 2:2.] How can there be any Eydus by Kiddush Hachodesh if there is no Din Hazomo?

Answers:
  • Some Ahcronim (Minchas Chinuch, Pnei Yehoshua Kesubois 21b, Beis Halevi 3:6:4) answer based on the second answer of the first Tosfos in Makkos: The rule of “Eidus She’ee Atoh Yachol L’Hazimoh Loy Havye Eidus” is only by Dinei Nefoshos and Dinei Momonos, not by other Dinim such as Kiddush Hachodesh and Kiyum Shtaros.
  • Shiurei Reb Shmuel (Makkos para. 33): The rule of “Eidus She’ee Atoh Yachol L’Hazimoh Loy Havye Eidus” means that it has to be possible to be Mevattel the Eidus through Eidei Hazomoh, even if the Eidim will not become Muzomim.

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 12:59:05 PM »
Oh, that would answer how someone can give aydus, which being that the witnesses, throught their own aydus, become bar mitsva, and thus elegible to give aydus.(They have their birthday on day 1 of the new month).

Now the problem would be that if they are being mazemd, they are still 12, and not valid for aydus, so obviously not mazimable.

The above answer, also answer this question.