Author Topic: Vicious Guy/Circle  (Read 5598 times)

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 12:59:30 PM »
Well said dirah.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 01:13:33 PM »
@Lamdan the mishna in R"h 20a (not sure I got that right) discusses a story of 40 pairs who stopped by at one of the tanoomin on their way to be meid on the same shabbos. In that case it will be very hard to assume there weren't eideim about the chillul shabbos.

@dirah, the Kheloy Yaakov in R'H siman 20 proves eidues shey ata yachol lehazeima is meacev also in kiddush hachodesh, from tosfos in Kesovos 20a that explains the halacha of ein ed naasa dayan is because that way it is eidus shey ata yachol lehazima. Since ein eid naasa dayan also in kiddush hachodesh, we see from tosfos eidua shey ata yachol lehazima is passul by kiddush hachodes.
Also what u quote from R Shmuel that eidus shey ata yachol lehazima is based on being mevatel there eidus, is basically a rashi in Sanhderin 40a. However, this would still not answer the rebbes question, as in his case the eidus would not be void due to the eidim being muzamim, rather due to them being passul leidus.
Even though we used hazomo to arrive at that conclusion, since we now know they are not eidem at all, they are eidem zommim, and the process was thus not a genuine hazomo. So even according to Rashis opinion it is lechorah an eidus shey ata yachol lehzsima.


Standing on Lamdan's pshat, I think the answer is that even if there are other eidem to prove the chilul shabbos, the eidem are innocent until proven guilty. Thus, we can be mekabel their eidus on the assumption of being meizem them. (Ein adam karov etzel atzomo, so we don't trust them about coming on shabbos).
Even if later eidem came to testify that they came to BD on shabbos, the eidus would remain acceptable as at the time of eidus it was kosher and roy lehzama. The only problem would be if we first accepted the testimony of those who say the eidem came on shabbos.
That would be impossible, as so long as we don't have eidi hazomo, we assume they are honest, and thus coming on shabbos is not chillul shabbos. Hence the testimony about their travelling on shabbos serves no purpose (as they remain kosher), and from the sugya of chetzi davar we know that we don't hear eidus without practical implications.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 11:12:17 PM »
@Lamdan the mishna in R"h 20a (not sure I got that right) discusses a story of 40 pairs who stopped by at one of the tanoomin on their way to be meid on the same shabbos. In that case it will be very hard to assume there weren't eideim about the chillul shabbos.
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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 03:38:50 AM »
What means (care to elaborate): In that case it will be very hard to assume there weren't eideim about the chillul shabbos.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 03:40:21 AM »
What means (care to elaborate): In that case it will be very hard to assume there weren't eideim about the chillul shabbos.

I didn't look at the gemoro, but unless its very clear, you would have to assume that they are not mechalel shabbos.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2012, 06:10:59 AM »
What means (care to elaborate): In that case it will be very hard to assume there weren't eideim about the chillul shabbos.
Since these 40 pairs walked through the taana's house in a city, it would be a big doichak to assume there weren't eidem to prove their being mechalel shaboos.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 10:02:37 AM »
Since these 40 pairs walked through the taana's house in a city, it would be a big doichak to assume there weren't eidem to prove their being mechalel shaboos.

Why is that? unless I got the whole story wrong.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 11:39:37 AM »
Why is that? unless I got the whole story wrong.
80 eidem were walking in pairs from town X to BD in J'lem, and all stopped in town Y on the way to speak to a taana.
Its very hard to assume there were no 2 eidem who saw any of those 80 people going, which would be enough to testify to his being mechallel shabbos & thus a rasha
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »
Were they going over the tchum? Otherwise what aveiro were they doing.

40 pairs, and not just one mega pair, so even if one is passeld, the 39 other pairs are still valid.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 06:25:33 PM »
Were they going over the tchum? Otherwise what aveiro were they doing.

40 pairs, and not just one mega pair, so even if one is passeld, the 39 other pairs are still valid.
Yes, over the techum. That's why after 40 he didn't let the rest go.

40 pairs and we know all were kosher, as otherwise the taana wouldn't have let them be mechallel shabbos to go.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 06:30:24 PM »
Yes, over the techum. That's why after 40 he didn't let the rest go.

40 pairs and we know all were kosher, as otherwise the taana wouldn't have let them be mechallel shabbos to go.

the tana made drishos vachakiros ?

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 07:12:54 PM »
the tana made drishos vachakiros ?
No, but he knew what was going on. So if they would be passul and their eidus not accepted he wouldn't have let them be mechalled shabbos to go to BD
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 07:34:00 PM »
the Kheloy Yaakov in R'H siman 20 proves eidues shey ata yachol lehazeima is meacev also in kiddush hachodesh, from tosfos in Kesovos 20a that explains the halacha of ein ed naasa dayan is because that way it is eidus shey ata yachol lehazima. Since ein eid naasa dayan also in kiddush hachodesh, we see from tosfos eidua shey ata yachol lehazima is passul by kiddush hachodes.
You probably mean תוספות כתובות כ"א עמוד ב' ד"ה אין עד.
I don’t know who the “Kheloy Yaakov” is (misspelling?), but I suppose he is basing himself on the יש מפרשים in that Tosfos. If that is the case, I refer you to Beis Halevi (3:6:4 – here is a link) who learns Tosfos differently. In a nutshell, he says that there is clearly no דין הזמה by קידוש החודש. Therefore, the פשט in Tosfos is that because there is the כלל of אין עד נעשה דיין (based on the דין הזמה) by דיני נפשות ודיני ממונות, therefore, by קידוש החדש there is also the דין of אין עד נעשה דיין. The reason for this is that we have to make equal דיני העדויות as much as possible (based on the פסוק of משפט אחד יהיה לכם), unless there is a clear גזירת הכתוב to the contrary. There is a גזירת הכתוב saying that there is no דין הזמה by קידוש החודש, however, there is no such גזירת הכתוב with regards to the כלל of אין עד נעשה דיין.
In short, there is a דין of אין עד נעשה דיין by קידוש החדש (which is derived בעלמא from עדות שאתה יכול להזימה), but there is not a דין of עדות שאתה יכול להזימה by קידוש החדש.
Also what u quote from R Shmuel that eidus shey ata yachol lehazima is based on being mevatel there eidus, is basically a rashi in Sanhderin 40a. However, this would still not answer the rebbes question, as in his case the eidus would not be void due to the eidim being muzamim, rather due to them being passul leidus. Even though we used hazomo to arrive at that conclusion, since we now know they are not eidem at all, they are eidem zommim, and the process was thus not a genuine hazomo. So even according to Rashis opinion it is lechorah an eidus shey ata yachol lehzsima.
Again, Reb Shmuel says (did you look it up?) that the דין הזמה itself carries within it two ענינים, one is that the עדות becomes בטל, second that there is the עונש of הזמה. The דין of עדות שאתה יכול להזימה is only regarding the first detail, not the second.
Now, in our case, the fact that Kat Alef were פסול לעשות at the time that they were מעיד is irrelevant to the first detail, and is relevant only to the second. Therefore, it is considered עדות שאתה יכול להזימה. [And I don't see how the מראה מקום to רש"י in סנהדרין is relevant.]
P.S. I hope the readers don’t mind the Hebrew type, it is just easier to do it that way, then to figure out how to spell it in English. [I imagine anyone reading this thread would not be the type to mind.]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 07:56:39 PM by dirah »

Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 07:50:58 PM »
Standing on Lamdan's pshat, I think the answer is that even if there are other eidem to prove the chilul shabbos, the eidem are innocent until proven guilty. Thus, we can be mekabel their eidus on the assumption of being meizem them. (Ein adam karov etzel atzomo, so we don't trust them about coming on shabbos).
Even if later eidem came to testify that they came to BD on shabbos, the eidus would remain acceptable as at the time of eidus it was kosher and roy lehzama. The only problem would be if we first accepted the testimony of those who say the eidem came on shabbos.
That would be impossible, as so long as we don't have eidi hazomo, we assume they are honest, and thus coming on shabbos is not chillul shabbos. Hence the testimony about their travelling on shabbos serves no purpose (as they remain kosher), and from the sugya of chetzi davar we know that we don't hear eidus without practical implications.
According to what you say, we would accept  עדי קידוש החדש on שבת only if it was not yet established in בית דין that they came on שבת. Such a big נפק"מ להלכה should appear in ש"ס or in רמב"ם. Since it doesn't, this answer can't be right.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 07:53:35 PM »
@dirah, I meant the kehilos yaakov.

I quite disagree - if the eid was determined passul, the eidus is batel because he is not an eid, not because of the geziras hakosov not to rely on eidem zommemim. Thus there is no eidus at all, and even in regard to the first detail above it is not roei lehazama.
According to what you say, we would accept  עדי קידוש החדש on שבת only if it was not yet established in בית דין that they came on שבת. Such a big נפק"מ להלכה should appear in ש"ס or in רמב"ם. Since it doesn't, this answer can't be right.
As I pointed out, it is impossible to establish that in beis din, as beis din don't hear eidus when there is no nafka mina on hand, since we don't yet know they are lying their coming on shabbos is not chillul shabbos, so since there is no relevence to it, BD cannot determine if they came on shabbos
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים