Author Topic: Vicious Guy/Circle  (Read 5601 times)

Offline dirah

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 08:02:05 PM »
@dirah, I meant the kehilos yaakov.
 
I will IYH look it up later. Although I don’t know how on earth anyone could say that there is a דין הזמה by קידוש החדש, it is a ירושלמי מפורש, and therefore the רמב"ם paskens accordingly.
I quite disagree - if the eid was determined passul, the eidus is batel because he is not an eid, not because of the geziras hakosov not to rely on eidem zommemim. Thus there is no eidus at all, and even in regard to the first detail above it is not roei lehazama.
Reb Shmuel vs. PlatinumGuy … lol … I’ll stick with Reb Shmuel, especially as it answers the questions.
As I pointed out, it is impossible to establish that in beis din, as beis din don't hear eidus when there is no nafka mina on hand, since we don't yet know they are lying their coming on shabbos is not chillul shabbos, so since there is no relevence to it, BD cannot determine if they came on shabbos
What about Beis Din Shero’u – if they saw it with their own eyes? Or it was a case where there was a Nafka Minah? Leave it to the Bochurim to think of a Heicha Timtza over lunch.

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 08:17:04 PM »
I will IYH look it up later. Although I don’t know how on earth anyone could say that there is a דין הזמה by קידוש החדש, it is a ירושלמי מפורש, and therefore the רמב"ם paskens accordingly.Reb Shmuel vs. PlatinumGuy … lol … I’ll stick with Reb Shmuel, especially as it answers the questions.What about Beis Din Shero’u – if they saw it with their own eyes? Or it was a case where there was a Nafka Minah? Leave it to the Bochurim to think of a Heicha Timtza over lunch.
Reb Shmuel doesn't say in a case where the eidem were also found reshaim it is considered hazama. All R Shmuel says is that what's required is not the punishment, but the voidment of the eidus because of the geizara haksov of eidem zommemim. This is a Rashi on Sanhedrin 40a, who says eidus shei ata yachol lehazima is passul because its lacking an element of eidus (kinda like roi leibila).

In this scenario the reason there is no eidus is not because of them being zommemim, but because they are not eidem at all. The method that was determined doesn't turn them into eidem zommemim. Thus this eidus is ei ata yachol lehazima, as there is no possibilty to void their eidus becaue they are zommemim.



Even if there was a heicha timtza, you can't bring a rayeh from the Rambam/Shu'a not discussing that specific case. So I will argue that in that heicha timtza, the eidus will be passul.
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 03:53:51 AM »
I believe Plat makes more sense.

Ultimately the question is (if it wasn't clear before), how can anyone give eidus on kidush levana when doing a melocho on shabbes, since it can never be muzam, which is a basic requirement for their acceptance by bes din.

PS: using the hebrew fonts is great.

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 02:07:00 PM »
What about Beis Din Shero’u – if they saw it with their own eyes? Or it was a case where there was a Nafka Minah? Leave it to the Bochurim to think of a Heicha Timtza over lunch.

How can they see that the chillul Shabbos was b'meizid? How can they give hasraah? Let's say they the eidim coming off a plane, without hasraa how do they shtel avek that it was b'meizid? Maybe they had another heter?

Sorry, I did not learn this sugyas in years and never really learnt it up.

The demographics here allow for some good lomdishe reid with the gemarakups here.  :)
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 02:26:51 PM »
Earlier in this thread I wrote a post starting with the words "veod yesh lomar", I don't think it was written well, but I think it's a good תירוץ, so let me rewrite it. There is no reason logically to trust the second pair of witnesses that claims the 1st pair is lying, it is a גזירת הכתוב. Therefore, it is possible to say, that we only believe them over the 1st pair לגבי the testimony that the 1st pair testified, and we'll disqualify the 1st pair's testimony. But the 1st pair won't have a din rasha, because לגבי wether they were michalel shabbos we don't believe the 2nd pair over the 1st, the גזירת הכתוב doesn't extend to believing the 2nd pair לגבי anything else that's a פועל יוצא of their testimony.
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Offline asd

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 02:56:01 PM »
@lamdan there is a whole sugya about eidus lechatzoin when something is preventing us from believing the whole eidus lemoshol if he implacates himself in the eidus (ploiny ruvany lirtzoiny) but lechoira your sevara is true nonetheless because here the eidus of zoimimim is specifc to the eidus the whole neemunes is only benogaiah the eidus and the chillul shabbos was never part of their eidus just derech agav, or maybe not

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 03:04:04 PM »
How can they see that the chillul Shabbos was b'meizid? How can they give hasraah? Let's say they the eidim coming off a plane, without hasraa how do they shtel avek that it was b'meizid? Maybe they had another heter?

Sorry, I did not learn this sugyas in years and never really learnt it up.

The demographics here allow for some good lomdishe reid with the gemarakups here.  :)
Huh? What does hasraa have to do with passul leidus? One is passul leidus even if he is oiver an averah w/o hasraa.

A person is neeman when he says mezid haysi, see rishonim Makkos 2a why that's so.
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Offline Lamdan

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 03:34:59 PM »
@lamdan there is a whole sugya about eidus lechatzoin when something is preventing us from believing the whole eidus lemoshol if he implacates himself in the eidus (ploiny ruvany lirtzoiny) but lechoira your sevara is true nonetheless because here the eidus of zoimimim is specifc to the eidus the whole neemunes is only benogaiah the eidus and the chillul shabbos was never part of their eidus just derech agav, or maybe not
Thanx for being maskim. There is a yesod from the Bais Halevi, that if you're traveling between two big cities and you don't meet anyone on the way, it's because you're on the wrong route, so too in learning if no one agrees with you it's bec. you have the wrong mehalech.
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Offline shmuelb

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 04:37:42 PM »
Earlier in this thread I wrote a post starting with the words "veod yesh lomar", I don't think it was written well, but I think it's a good תירוץ, so let me rewrite it. There is no reason logically to trust the second pair of witnesses that claims the 1st pair is lying, it is a גזירת הכתוב.

From what I remember, there is a sevara that you can not be meid about yourself. That is why "imanu hayisem" works to be mazim but "nirtzach haya imanu" etc does not work.

An example of what you are waying can be why in the Mishna in Makos, 6b

Quote
מתני' היו שנים רואין אותו מחלון זה ושנים רואין אותו מחלון זה ואחד מתרה בו באמצע בזמן שמקצתן רואין אלו את אלו הרי אלו עדות אחת ואם לאו הרי אלו שתי עדיות לפיכך אם נמצאת אחת מהן זוממת הוא והן נהרגין והשניה פטורה

you can ask how it was one Kat if they were not there so they never really saw each other?

With your answer, ken zein you can say that the mazimim are not neeman legabey that. Ayin b'Ktzos, Rav Chaim and more iirc.
siyag lachachma :-)

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2012, 04:56:38 PM »
Earlier in this thread I wrote a post starting with the words "veod yesh lomar", I don't think it was written well, but I think it's a good תירוץ, so let me rewrite it. There is no reason logically to trust the second pair of witnesses that claims the 1st pair is lying, it is a גזירת הכתוב. Therefore, it is possible to say, that we only believe them over the 1st pair לגבי the testimony that the 1st pair testified, and we'll disqualify the 1st pair's testimony. But the 1st pair won't have a din rasha, because לגבי wether they were michalel shabbos we don't believe the 2nd pair over the 1st, the גזירת הכתוב doesn't extend to believing the 2nd pair לגבי anything else that's a פועל יוצא of their testimony.
Assuming we have another pair of eidem to testify that they came on shabbos, the only question remaining to determine if they were mechallel shabbos is if they were meid trully or falsely.

So basically, what you're saying is that in geizars haksov of eidem zommemim not to believe them in this eidus, we reckon the eidus was false for all ramifications such as what day yo'k is, and even about their eidus itself (hence we give them malkus), + they become passul for future eidus (B'K 74a) but we still mantain they were truthfull when judging if they were mechallel shabbos for a true eidus?
זה לא עובד ככה :)
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Offline shmuelb

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2012, 04:00:18 AM »
Quote
זה לא עובד ככה

Thanks for the smile. Is that not how palginan diburei works?
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Vicious Guy/Circle
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2012, 04:09:27 AM »
Thanks for the smile. Is that not how palginan diburei works?

correct me if I'm wrong, but this palginon diburei seems to work only when we split the story on the etsem act, not something (semi) separate, such as mechalel shabbos, or any other deed that qualify them as resho'im.