Edward Snowden Hero or Villain?

[Achas Veachas]

I think that Americans (myself included) need to come to terms with the fact that in this day and age, with the thread of Islamic terrorism at every turn, the government will not be able to protect us AND keep our privacy.

The reality is that we need to choose one way or the other.

Islamics are not fighting a traditional war with uniforms. They have mastered the art of "blending in" with mainstream society, and there is absolutely no way to differentiate between terrorist and civilian. You have "political correctness" to thank for this.

That said, for the NSA to find them, they need to find you too. Your next door neighbor may be a terrorist, and the ONLY way for the NSA to find out and to protect YOU from HIM is to search his records.

Now, it's uncomfortable, and if you believe that our government can suddenly become like Nazi Germany, it's dangerous. But then again, would you rather the NSA back off and let YOU find the terrorists instead?

You can bet your bottom dollar that every country with half a brain is doing the same thing, except that there has not yet been a whistleblower.

Your point would be up for debate in a world where computers are smart enough to sift through all the mountains of data to find some useful information. The way things are now, the government is stuck with a $#!t load of data, and nothing but clumsy algorithms that don't fit the real world. Computers look at patterns, problem is that people don't fit into patterns, and any time someone steps out of a pattern he is labeled suspicious by the algorithm while the Terrorists, who are smart enough to fool the algorithms go undetected.
What ends up happening is that we are left without privacy AND without security.

[meshugener]

What I would propose is legislation that the government cannot use this information against you in a court of law, as it has been obtained without warrant. (I.e. it can be used to catch terrorists, but, if along the way they find a person dealing drugs, they will not be able to use their email or phone records in court).

Isn't that existing law?

[jj1000]

The reality is that we need to choose one way or the other.

lol, I don't remember that option on my last ballot. Fact is the Government makes these decisions without us. That is where the problem lies.

[Achas Veachas]

lol, I don't remember that option on my last ballot. Fact is the Government makes these decisions without us. That is where the problem lies.

+1
That, and that it's all done in secret without oversight and regulation.

[CountValentine]

Honestly I don't think I know enough or ever will know enough to make an informed decision.

This is the catch 22. The same could be said for the rest of us.

[zale]

lol, I don't remember that option on my last ballot. Fact is the Government makes these decisions without us. That is where the problem lies.

The choice was hypothetical. Would you want to have it the other way?

[zale]

Isn't that existing law?

Yes, but I don't know how it would apply here, as in this case the NSA obtained a "bulk" warrant for all information.

[Achas Veachas]

Yes, but I don't know how it would apply here, as in this case the NSA obtained a "bulk" warrant for all information.

Maybe that's part of the problem?

[jj1000]

The choice was hypothetical. Would you want to have it the other way?

I'm torn whether I like a representative democracy or a pure democracy.

Probably leaning towards the latter. So the answer would be yes I'd like to make those choices. If you care to elect me I'd be glad to serve.

[LeeW]

Of course I heard that argument. If someone wants to compare a so called democracy that was in its infancy to the democracy we have now there is not much to say.

I'm not sure why you differentiate between Germany in the 1930's and the US today, both were fully functioning democracies.
Regardless, there are numerous examples of this ocurring in America. In the 1930's it was perfectly legal to be Japanese in America. In 1942, not so much. In the 40's it was perfectly legal to be part of certain clubs. Enter the McCarthy years and any connection to certain clubs was grounds for an arrest.

[Achas Veachas]

I'm not sure why you differentiate between Germany in the 1930's and the US today, both were fully functioning democracies.
Regardless, there are numerous examples of this ocurring in America. In the 1930's it was perfectly legal to be Japanese in America. In 1942, not so much. In the 40's it was perfectly legal to be part of certain clubs. Enter the McCarthy years and any connection to certain clubs was grounds for an arrest.

But then, by your examples one can argue that democracies tend to correct themselves when they go too far.

[CountValentine]

I'm not sure why you differentiate between Germany in the 1930's and the US today, both were fully functioning democracies.
Regardless, there are numerous examples of this ocurring in America. In the 1930's it was perfectly legal to be Japanese in America. In 1942, not so much. In the 40's it was perfectly legal to be part of certain clubs. Enter the McCarthy years and any connection to certain clubs was grounds for an arrest.

Do you believe a one year old and a 20 year old have the same thought process? You are trying to compare a democracy that is over 200 years old to one that is less than 15. No one said our democracy is perfect. It is the best we have so get use to it. Anyone that is not happy with it please don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

[jj1000]

Do you believe a one year old and a 20 year old have the same thought process? You are trying to compare a democracy that is over 200 years old to one that is less than 15. No one said our democracy is perfect. It is the best we have so get use to it. Anyone that is not happy with it please don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

Your funny, but you may have forgotten a democracy is made up by the people, and if a vast majority agree to change that democracies constitution, it would be, well, democratic.

So saying leave if you don't like it is silly. If you don't like it you should share your ideas and try to have others join your cause. There are many governing entities that would say "if you don't like it leave", but I don't think democracy is one of them.

It seems to me you think the US is a democratic monarchy.

[CountValentine]

So saying leave if you don't like it is silly. If you don't like it you should share your ideas and try to have others join your cause. There are many governing entities that would say "if you don't like it leave", but I don't think democracy is one of them.

This is why our democracy works. We both get to express our opinions.

[Achas Veachas]

This is why our democracy works. We both get to express our opinions.

+1

And that's why:

Democracies tend to correct themselves when they go too far.

When something outrageous happens, The People don't have to resign themselves to saying "that's how it is", they are allowed to get outraged and do something about it.

[skyguy918]

I find it funny that people care so much about the government having their info, but not the sites/companies that the government is getting the info from (Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc.). For the vast majority of people it makes no difference.

[moko]

I find it funny that people care so much about the government having their info, but not the sites/companies that the government is getting the info from (Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc.). For the vast majority of people it makes no difference.

the main diff. is that regarding the private sector it's "voluntary" even though they use some questionable tactics to get your consent (just look at all the government reg. that they must specifically ask for it and not just assume that u agree bec. u are using thier product.
Then again, behind every big bad government , is a big bad corporation.

[skyguy918]

the main diff. is that regarding the private sector it's "voluntary" even though they use some questionable tactics to get your consent (just look at all the government reg. that they must specifically ask for it and not just assume that u agree bec. u are using thier product.
Then again, behind every big bad government , is a big bad corporation.

My point was more than people don't mind that they're giving all this info to some company. I'm not saying that hey necessarily should care, but it's a bit incongruous.

[Achas Veachas]

Why you SHOULD care, even if you (think you) have nothing to hide.

[CountValentine]

"Top U.S. intelligence officials said Saturday that information gleaned from two controversial data-collection programs run by the National Security Agency thwarted potential terrorist plots in the U.S. and more than 20 other countries — and that gathered data is destroyed every five years.

Last year, fewer than 300 phone numbers were checked against the database of millions of U.S. phone records gathered daily by the NSA in one of the programs, the intelligence officials said in arguing that the programs are far less sweeping than their detractors allege."