Poll

Do you think George Zimmerman will be convicted?

Yes
10 (23.8%)
No
23 (54.8%)
Undecided
9 (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Author Topic: George Zimmerman  (Read 70475 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #400 on: July 21, 2013, 08:34:12 PM »
No such things, besides when the world gangs up on Israel.  :P
No worry, we got your back.  :)
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Offline Baruch

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #401 on: July 21, 2013, 08:53:44 PM »
Mark him down as an idiot. How you use deadly force if you are dead?  ::)
The Talmud states: "Syag Lachachma shtika" - which basically means if you want people to think your smart - stay quiet. You just exposed yourself as someone with very poor comprehension skills. No wonder you don't realize this Trayvon Martin story is the most Media/Black Leadership blown up story in a long time. Only a fool doesn't realize the whole issue is one big joke.

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #402 on: July 21, 2013, 09:04:47 PM »
The Talmud states: "Syag Lachachma shtika" - which basically means if you want people to think your smart - stay quiet. You just exposed yourself as someone with very poor comprehension skills. No wonder you don't realize this Trayvon Martin story is the most Media/Black Leadership blown up story in a long time. Only a fool doesn't realize the whole issue is one big joke.
Don't ever play chess.  ;)
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #403 on: July 21, 2013, 09:16:02 PM »
Don't ever play chess.  ;)
I thought you were gonna say: "Mirror mirror on the wall".

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #404 on: July 21, 2013, 09:28:08 PM »
I thought you were gonna say: "Mirror mirror on the wall".
...but then you would have said...
You are so predictable, its scary!
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Offline dirah

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #405 on: July 21, 2013, 09:37:08 PM »

Offline henche

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #406 on: July 22, 2013, 10:59:20 AM »
You would know more about this than me but are you sure? I thought in some states the response has to be proportionate. Also in many states you must try to retreat before using deadly force.

In all states the response has to be proportionate. That is, you are only allowed to use deadly force in any state if it is necessary to save yourself from grievous bodily harm.

That doesn't--and couldn't--mean you aren't allowed to overpower him. If he is going to stab you with a knife and the only way to stop him is to shoot a bazooka at him, then you can. But if you had time to warn him to stop or you'll shoot and you don't, then it is murder. Note how a bazooka and a knife are not proportionate in the "criticize Israel" sense, but are proportionate  in that it is something that was necessary for you to do.

The only issue is the stand your ground, and that doesn't actually change the standard I articulated above. The deadly force you are using still has to necessary to stop him. The only difference is whether you also have to be unable to run away. I'm not exactly sure how that works, since presumably at some point it is too late to run away, and that is presumably the point you'd be using your force anyway. But stand your ground wasn't at issue in this case--nobody thinks Zimmerman was able to run away at the point in the story that we are concerned with.

So the standard you are espousing actually already is the standard in every state, with the only question being whether running away has to not be an option. And in most states and the common law, you already don't have to run away if it is inside your own house (the castle doctrine).

Aside: Stand your ground laws were passed by about half or so of the states some time ago, after some backlash over juries who were convicting people  of murder in self-defense situations on the theory they could have run away. The popular concern at the time was that it is too easy to second guess what a person should do when they are under a deadly attack, and that on a doubt we should side with the original victim. It isn't just this "macho" "wild west" inspired law.

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #407 on: July 22, 2013, 01:03:25 PM »
In all states the response has to be proportionate. That is, you are only allowed to use deadly force in any state if it is necessary to save yourself from grievous bodily harm.
Then there were probably 10-15 fights I could have killed someone using self defense. Another 10-15 where I started the fight and could still have killed the other person and claim self defense since the other person would not be able to dispute it.
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #409 on: July 22, 2013, 01:30:56 PM »
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Offline good sam

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #410 on: July 22, 2013, 01:39:02 PM »
Then there were probably 10-15 fights I could have killed someone using self defense. Another 10-15 where I started the fight and could still have killed the other person and claim self defense since the other person would not be able to dispute it.
Not so simple. Burden is on the defendant to prove elements allowing for self-defense were present.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #411 on: July 22, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »
Not so simple. Burden is on the defendant to prove elements allowing for self-defense were present.
Sure it is that simple. In all those fights I looked a lot worse that Zim.  :-[
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #412 on: July 22, 2013, 01:47:46 PM »
Sure it is that simple. In all those fights I looked a lot worse that Zim.  :-[
But unless the guy's pointing a gun at you, its gonna be pretty hard to claim you feared for your life.  Witnesses corroborated, and the jury believed, that GZ's head was being paved into the concrete (I recall the defense making the argument that TM was using the concrete as a deadly weapon).  Without that, there's no way he gets off on self-defense.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #413 on: July 22, 2013, 01:59:35 PM »
He didn't feel threatened and shoot the person?  :)

The guy he rescued was probably also a "White Hispanic"  :P

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #414 on: July 22, 2013, 02:03:20 PM »
But unless the guy's pointing a gun at you, its gonna be pretty hard to claim you feared for your life.  Witnesses corroborated, and the jury believed, that GZ's head was being paved into the concrete (I recall the defense making the argument that TM was using the concrete as a deadly weapon).  Without that, there's no way he gets off on self-defense.
Let’s not retry the case but also let’s not take media reports for facts in the case. What witness claimed TM slammed Zim head into the concrete? How about what witness knew for sure it was even TM on top? What the jury believed is they could not tell with any certainty what happened so by our laws he must be found not guilty. Please don't confuse not guilty with innocent.
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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #415 on: July 22, 2013, 02:03:42 PM »
The guy he rescued was probably also a "White Hispanic"  :P
That makes sense now.  :)
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Offline henche

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #416 on: July 22, 2013, 03:08:08 PM »
Then there were probably 10-15 fights I could have killed someone using self defense. Another 10-15 where I started the fight and could still have killed the other person and claim self defense since the other person would not be able to dispute it.

I can easily prove that is not the case, from the fact that you are alive and did not kill them. That shows it was not necessary for you to use deadly force to save yourself.

Anyway, are you telling me that people have tried to kill you 10-15 times? Or tried to batter you to the point of grievous bodily injury (cut off limbs, etc)?


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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #417 on: July 22, 2013, 03:12:00 PM »
I can easily prove that is not the case, from the fact that you are alive and did not kill them. That shows it was not necessary for you to use deadly force to save yourself.

That you can tell with hindsight, if he WOULD have killed them you would have no way of knowing that.

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #418 on: July 22, 2013, 03:16:27 PM »
That you can tell with hindsight, if he WOULD have killed them you would have no way of knowing that.

Ok, so that goes to his second argument that it is hard to tell when a murder was justified and when it wasn't. Which is a fair point, but has no solution. Because nobody in their right mind would say that you should not be able to use deadly for if it is necessary to stop deadly force against you--just because we will have evidence problems.

It is an argument against stand your ground laws though. But really--how concerned are we about that? Just how often do we think this is happening that innocents are being killed and the guilty party getting off on stand your ground (which was not at issue here)

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Re: George Zimmerman
« Reply #419 on: July 22, 2013, 03:21:15 PM »
Anyway, are you telling me that people have tried to kill you 10-15 times? Or tried to batter you to the point of grievous bodily injury (cut off limbs, etc)?
What I am saying is I looked a lot worse than Zim did and took worse beatings than he did. Many times a few stiches and a couple of broken noses. You know how the saying goes "you should have seen the other guy".  :)
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