Author Topic: NYC Vs. OOT  (Read 18602 times)

Online jj1000

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 01:54:51 AM »
That point isn't relatively correct. Outside NY the communities have less fighting when measured in real numbers, of course, but that is simply because they have significantly less people to fight with and between. But I would say they -- proportionally -- have just as much fighting. But of course it doesn't hit the news and blogs nearly as much, simply because smaller scales don't make as much sport for the baalei loshon hora.

Same idea with the hechseirim, schools and other organizations. OOT they simply cannot support more than one in most communities.
You clearly never lived in a "small town" community before, and I feel stupid arguing when you keep saying whatever fits your opinion, to justify your argument.

And I said what I want to see in a community, I know.for sure it is not NY. If you want to go through other communities that would be a new and productive conversation which is the point of this thread.

Fact is people being close together in a physical sense causes tention and fighting. There have been many experiments to this point. And is a basis for low crime rates in rural areas verse urban areas. And those percentages of lower crime are just that percentages proportionate to each cities size.

I think the same can apply to the fighting and controversy in the Jewish frum communities of NY verse out of town communities.

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Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 02:02:32 AM »
I've lived in NY for decades. And not once have I or any family member I know of -- or any neighbor or friend I know of -- gotten into any serious fight. I'm sure it happens, but it is uncommon.

I've lived in several different homes around here, all in different neighborhoods. I've been very friendly and gotten along with *all* my neighbors at all times. Adults and children. They play with each other, we converse with each other and we share simchos and the opposite r'l with each other. Always have.

The crime rate in the Jewish neighborhoods of NY (especially Midwood and Boro Park) is almost *non-existant*. They are the safest neighborhoods in NYC. This is a statistical fact you can view with NYPD data.

Your impressions of NY are way way off base, based on popular media fiction and rumor mongering.


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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 02:05:48 AM »
I've lived in NY for decades. And not once have I or any family member I know of -- or any neighbor or friend I know of -- gotten into any serious fight. I'm sure it happens, but it is uncommon.

I've lived in several different homes around here, all in different neighborhoods. I've been very friendly and gotten along with *all* my neighbors at all times. Adults and children. They play with each other, we converse with each other and we share simchos and the opposite r'l with each other. Always have.

The crime rate in the Jewish neighborhoods of NY (especially Midwood and Boro Park) is almost *non-existant*. They are the safest neighborhoods in NYC. This is a statistical fact you can view with NYPD data.

Your impressions of NY are way way off base, based on popular media fiction and rumor mongering.


Doh. I was never talking about crime in Jewish communities.
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Offline robi

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 02:08:17 AM »
That point isn't relatively correct. Outside NY the communities have less fighting when measured in real numbers, of course, but that is simply because they have significantly less people to fight with and between. But I would say they -- proportionally -- have just as much fighting. But of course it doesn't hit the news and blogs nearly as much, simply because smaller scales don't make as much sport for the baalei loshon hora.

Same idea with the hechseirim, schools and other organizations. OOT they simply cannot support more than one in most communities.
how to put this simply? You're wrong. That's it.
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Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 02:14:03 AM »
Point A: I am quite correct about NY, knowing it quite well. And quite confident it is proportionally similar in that regard to smaller Jewish communities.

Point B: Harlem to Boro Park/Flatbush is like what Detroit is to Southfield/Oak Park. A far away universe.

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 02:19:15 AM »
Point A: I am quite correct about NY, knowing it quite well. And quite confident it is proportionally similar in that regard to smaller Jewish communities.

Point B: Harelm to Boro Park/Flatbush is like what Detroit is to Southfield/Oak Park. A far away universe.
Unless you lived in every small Jewish community, you sound like a very ignorant and stubborn person.

You are basing facts on opinions.

I simply don't understand how you think you know what every community is like without living there.

I have lived or visited for a week+ over a dozen Jewish communities and each one is so unique, I am baffaled by your confidence.

You are making a claim of NYC as number 1. That means without exception. So if there is one city with none or little fighting your whole argument gets thrown out the window. Drastic claims need drastic support to.them and I don't see any. In fact from my time living in NY I know the opposite is true.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:22:20 AM by jj1000 »
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Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 02:33:27 AM »
A. I've spent very significant time living OOT. (Between my primary NYC stints.)

B. You are presenting no more authorative statistics than *your* opinions. This is especially correct regarding your boich svaras about fighting.

C. Again, you are making small petty points and ignoring the larger picture I am discussing and pointing out.


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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 02:39:02 AM »
A. I've spent very significant time living OOT. (Between my primary NYC stints.)

B. You are presenting no more authorative statistics than *your* opinions. This is especially correct regarding your boich svaras about fighting.

C. Again, you are making small petty points and ignoring the larger picture I am discussing and pointing out.


For the most part, I am saying that you don't know every Jewish community. I don't need proof for that. The onus is on you.

And as for the bigger picture, many communities have those same "amenities."

Like I said they may not have as much, but I'd take one city with achdus... Ugh this repetitive.

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Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 02:42:52 AM »
NYC has more achdus than anywhere else by virtue of its far larger frum population who are b'achdus. Any fighting you heard on the loshon hora grapevine is -- proportionally -- no greater than elsewhere despite the l"h blog/newsreels not finding enough sport in smaller oot issues.

Offline Saver2000

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 02:47:05 AM »
NYC has more achdus than anywhere else by virtue of its far larger frum population who are b'achdus. Any fighting you heard on the loshon hora grapevine is -- proportionally -- no greater than elsewhere despite the l"h blog/newsreels not finding enough sport in smaller oot issues.
This is so untrue.  Whether it be chassides,  organizations, shuls, institutions etc.
There is almost no association in NYC that DON'T have some sort of fight/politics going on.

Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 02:55:15 AM »
That's complete hogwash that you fell for by listening to the sheker from the baalei loshon hora. And again you are missing the larger picture which is that -- PROPORTIONALLY -- there is no more machlokes here than in the average oot community.

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 02:59:03 AM »
That's complete hogwash that you fell for by listening to the sheker from the baalei loshon hora. And again you are missing the larger picture which is that -- PROPORTIONALLY -- there is no more machlokes here than in the average oot community.
Oy vey! That means you only know of OOT lashon hara because you also listen to that sheker from those balei lashon hara. Or you are choshech bi'kesharim.

Or maybe Saver like myself known specifics in NY and specifics in OOT communities first hand, testifying to the lesser amount of fighting.
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Offline Chaikel

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 03:07:40 AM »
NYC has more achdus than anywhere else by virtue of its far larger frum population who are b'achdus. Any fighting you heard on the loshon hora grapevine is -- proportionally -- no greater than elsewhere despite the l"h blog/newsreels not finding enough sport in smaller oot issues.
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Offline Shlomo Zalman

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2013, 03:17:56 AM »
My dear friend, a lot of your fellow OOTers have been moving to New York consistently over the decades. New York, kinayna hora, has tens of thousands of former OOTers who now call New York their home. Frum OOT communities are emptying at a rapid rate leaving them with a mostly older crowd. Take a look around you. New York is thriving. OOT are in large part shrinking from their old frum population.

Ask yourselves why.

Offline ChAiM'l

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2013, 04:12:46 AM »

Ask yourselves why.

Family, parnassah and peer pressure amongst others.

I know plenty of people living in NYC, both born-and-bred and OOTs. Most of them would prefer to live elsewhere, but are only there because their relatives are there, or because they are afraid they won't find a job elsewhere.

Oh, and your 'facts' about other communities are baseless, and totally ridiculous.

Offline sky121

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2013, 04:41:40 AM »
+1 NY may be growing but most small towns I know are growing as well.
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Offline Chaikel

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2013, 05:36:29 AM »
+1 NY may be growing but most small towns I know are growing as well.
Beachwood, OH is one of the fastest growing Frum community in America
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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2013, 06:06:55 AM »
Beachwood, OH is one of the fastest growing Frum community in America

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 06:33:03 AM »
Beachwood, OH is one of the fastest growing Frum community in America

Where are you getting that information from?

Offline Ergel

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Re: NYC Vs. OOT
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2013, 07:17:22 AM »
@jj you already conceded my point and yet you continue. Some people are better off not argued with
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