Ex-TLV Routes and Flights Discussions

[Dan]

They don't allow El Al to fly to Turkey

{{Citation needed}}

[ExGingi]

Was just thinking along these lines. Weird that as tensions are rising, the flight frequency is increasing as well.

The tensions are false. It's mostly rhetoric to appease/address a certain group. Turkey isn't cutting ties with Israel anytime soon.

[ExGingi]

{{Citation needed}}

I think it's more like a common decision to control security.

[yandmk]

{{Citation needed}}

A quick Google search found me this:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkeys-ban-on-israeli-flights-could-bring-down-el-al/

[ExGingi]

I think it's more like a common decision to control security.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/1.4723643

[Dan]

A quick Google search found me this:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/turkeys-ban-on-israeli-flights-could-bring-down-el-al/

How is not agreeing to all of LY's security demands the same as banning them from flying?

[ExGingi]

How is not agreeing to all of LY's security demands the same as banning them from flying?

They are banned from flying, just not by the Turks, rather by the Israelis. Similarly, they don't fly to CAI or AMM but no one is "complaining" because those aren't lucrative.

[ExGingi]

That's precisely the point. They don't allow El Al to fly to Turkey, and Israel let's them in, and they're partying on the monopoly....

TK doesn't have a monopoly on flights between Turkey and TLV. Pegasus flies to TLV too, and you can probably take a connecting flight to the Most Glorious Benefits Nation of Kazakhstan.

[tavster]

The tensions are false.

Isn't the fact that LY is banned from flying there a result of these tensions?

[shapsam]

They are banned from flying, just not by the Turks, rather by the Israelis. Similarly, they don't fly to CAI or AMM but no one is "complaining" because those aren't lucrative.

How is IST lucrative for LY? more than 80% of TK passengers are connecting in IST.

[ExGingi]

How is IST lucrative for LY? more than 80% of TK passengers are connecting in IST.

Do you have any awareness of the amount of trade (and tourism) between Israel and Turkey?

Passengers from TLV to AYT or ADB aren't going for any connections.

[yandmk]

How is not agreeing to all of LY's security demands the same as banning them from flying?

Whether a direct ban or indirect, they have been partying on this monopoly for many years already. Those questioning the expansion, the answer is the same. Even if they didn't need the money, they would be doing it just for the fun of spiting Israel. (I hope that last sentence, doesn't turn into a mad argument, but it's unfortunately true. unlike the Air India fight with El Al, which had little to do with politics, just financial)

[ExGingi]

Whether a direct ban or indirect, they have been partying on this monopoly for many years already. Those questioning the expansion, the answer is the same. Even if they didn't need the money, they would be doing it just for the fun of spiting Israel. (I hope that last sentence, doesn't turn into a mad argument, but it's unfortunately true. unlike the Air India fight with El Al, which had little to do with politics, just financial)

Huh? What kool-aid are you drinking?

TK has been expanding and contracting TLV capacity based on demand.

[shapsam]

Do you have any awareness of the amount of trade (and tourism) between Israel and Turkey?

Passengers from TLV to AYT or ADB aren't going for any connections.

Exactly, ADB will be 4x a week, not 10 daily flights.

[yandmk]

Huh? What kool-aid are you drinking?

TK has been expanding and contracting TLV capacity based on demand.

You bolded an entire sentence and ignored half (specifically the first word). But it's waste of time to argue with someone who believes

The tensions are false. It's mostly rhetoric to appease/address a certain group. Turkey isn't cutting ties with Israel anytime soon.

Learn the facts before you start defending a government who funds Hamas. Not saying that one should not fly TK (I've flown them myself). But just because LY came up in the conversation, doesn't mean that it's all "rhetoric". I know you're an expert on "Israeli DNA" and El Al, but perhaps you don't know everything...

[ExGingi]

You bolded an entire sentence and ignored half (specifically the first word). But it's waste of time to argue with someone who believes

I bolded a statement that is even more outlandish than an outlandish (though based on personal anecdotal evidence) claim I made. Do you see TK flying empty planes out of TLV?

Learn the facts before you start defending a government who funds Hamas. Not saying that one should not fly TK (I've flown them myself). But just because LY came up in the conversation, doesn't mean that it's all "rhetoric". I know you're an expert on "Israeli DNA" and El Al, but perhaps you don't know everything...

I definitely do not know everything, and I'm the first one to admit if I'm shown to be wrong. Though you were the one to make the assertion that

Even if they didn't need the money, they would be doing it just for the fun of spiting Israel. (I hope that last sentence, doesn't turn into a mad argument, but it's unfortunately true.

without offering any evidence to back up your claim.

One needs to understand that in the Geopolitical world, not everything is black and white. There's a famous quote by CDG that says: "France has no friends, only interests." The same is true for every political entity. Erdoğan is striving to regain hegemony over the Muslim world, that Turkey held for centuries. He is "competing" with Saudi Arabia and Iran. For the past 71 years, rallying for the cause of the "Palestinians" and "Al-Kuds" (which was mostly built by the Turks) seemed like a necessary position to hold in order to gain the support of the masses and be seen as a true leader of the Muslim world.

Both Netanyahu and Erdoğan understand that for the foreseeable future, the State of Israel is here to stay, as is the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict". Netanyahu is brilliantly and slowly trying to shift both the Muslim and the Arab world away from seeing that "conflict" as something that should be of interest to them. It's local, and many more Arabs and Muslims are killed by other Arabs and Muslims than by Jewish Israelis. Erdoğan OTOH, has his own agenda, and as long as Netanyahu has not been successful with his agenda, Erdoğan will keep on trying to be the champion of the "Palestinians" and "Al-Kuds" in order to further his agenda of becoming the leader of the Muslim world, and rebuilding Turkish global influence. A key to the success of anyone who is in power, is maintaining the status quo and stability. Everyone saw what happened with the "Arab Spring", and no-one wants it duplicated.

Netanyahu couldn't care less what names Erdoğan calls him. When he responds, he's doing exactly what Erdoğan is doing, and merely feeding his base. (Oh, and by the way, on funding Hamas, I'm sure you do know who is allowing direct cash funding of Hamas coming from Qatar to Gaza via the only access point other than Egypt - did anyone say stability?).

[ludmila]

I bolded a statement that is even more outlandish than an outlandish (though based on personal anecdotal evidence) claim I made. Do you see TK flying empty planes out of TLV?

I definitely do not know everything, and I'm the first one to admit if I'm shown to be wrong. Though you were the one to make the assertion thatwithout offering any evidence to back up your claim.

One needs to understand that in the Geopolitical world, not everything is black and white. There's a famous quote by CDG that says: "France has no friends, only interests." The same is true for every political entity. Erdoğan is striving to regain hegemony over the Muslim world, that Turkey held for centuries. He is "competing" with Saudi Arabia and Iran. For the past 71 years, rallying for the cause of the "Palestinians" and "Al-Kuds" (which was mostly built by the Turks) seemed like a necessary position to hold in order to gain the support of the masses and be seen as a true leader of the Muslim world.

Both Netanyahu and Erdoğan understand that for the foreseeable future, the State of Israel is here to stay, as is the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict". Netanyahu is brilliantly and slowly trying to shift both the Muslim and the Arab world away from seeing that "conflict" as something that should be of interest to them. It's local, and many more Arabs and Muslims are killed by other Arabs and Muslims than by Jewish Israelis. Erdoğan OTOH, has his own agenda, and as long as Netanyahu has not been successful with his agenda, Erdoğan will keep on trying to be the champion of the "Palestinians" and "Al-Kuds" in order to further his agenda of becoming the leader of the Muslim world, and rebuilding Turkish global influence. A key to the success of anyone who is in power, is maintaining the status quo and stability. Everyone saw what happened with the "Arab Spring", and no-one wants it duplicated.

Netanyahu couldn't care less what names Erdoğan calls him. When he responds, he's doing exactly what Erdoğan is doing, and merely feeding his base. (Oh, and by the way, on funding Hamas, I'm sure you do know who is allowing direct cash funding of Hamas coming from Qatar to Gaza via the only access point other than Egypt - did anyone say stability?).

Very good analysis, makes a lot of sense.

[KSMH]

AMM is a very lucrative route 400ow for -30 Min flights

IST is a very busy route a LY should pick up some traffic if it were to start routes. Turkey not accommodating LY security needs = ban. Many other countries including the US can accommodate LY's needs why cant Turkey?

Political rhetoric = vibes on the streets that in return = actions.

The idea of a country having and building economic relations while verbally fighting is sort of an "only in the ME".

[ExGingi]

AMM is a very lucrative route 400ow for -30 Min flights

What percentage of TLV-AMM traffic isn't connecting? I would guess it is probably lower than the percentage of TLV-IST traffic.

IST is a very busy route a LY should pick up some traffic if it were to start routes. Turkey not accommodating LY security needs = ban. Many other countries including the US can accommodate LY's needs why cant Turkey?

Why can't Jordan? Why can't Egypt?
Unless you can show me why this isn't a mutually agreed upon situation, I find it hard to believe otherwise.

The idea of a country having and building economic relations while verbally fighting is sort of an "only in the ME".

Sounds right, but they didn't copyright it, so it is spreading elsewhere. Though if you look into it you'll find that it goes beyond economic relations. The Israelis have security and intelligence relations with some of their vocal critics.

[ExGingi]

AMM is a very lucrative route 400ow for -30 Min flights

IST is a very busy route a LY should pick up some traffic if it were to start routes. Turkey not accommodating LY security needs = ban. Many other countries including the US can accommodate LY's needs why cant Turkey?

Political rhetoric = vibes on the streets that in return = actions.

The idea of a country having and building economic relations while verbally fighting is sort of an "only in the ME".

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jordanian-mp-salutes-palestinian-terrorist-for-killing-the-jews/

This article is relevant in a few ways. It's possibly a lot worse than Erdogan's tweets/public statements, yet I don't hear complaints about the unfair advantage of RJ over LY. And in a similar way, these are mostly rhetorical shows, because as terrible as they are, there's no practical meaning (though they are quite inciteful, and we've seen Jordanian violence against Jews, including from a uniformed member of the Jordanian army - something you don't see in Turkey).

And on another note, how likely do you think the officials mentioned at the end of the article were likely to fly RJ, rather than travel over land? (Though Helicopter is probably most likely).