Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 17131 times)

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #183 on: May 12, 2022, 12:03:29 AM »
Itís a beautiful sentiment but it is not going to lead to NYS recognizing a chassidish high school diploma  which will decimate funding for post high school yeshivos and make it difficult for those who want to continue on to a secular college degree.

Offline yelped

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Online Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #185 on: May 12, 2022, 07:13:48 AM »
Come on.

The article is quite well stated. Come on isn't much if s response. Care to elaborate? I'm asking sincerely
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Online hvaces42

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #186 on: May 12, 2022, 10:56:50 AM »
The article is quite well stated. Come on isn't much if s response. Care to elaborate? I'm asking sincerely
Then you wonder why they call our community leeches on society. Taking the position that he takes to the end (and unless I am misreading it he is taking the position that we do not need ANY secular studies at all in yeshivos) we are setting up generations of chasidim for failure and reliance on an increasingly hostile government. If we want Wisconsin v Yoder results we better be ready to move our communities to rural America, work the land, etc. You cant grow Chasidish communities in metropolitan areas and not teach any secular studies. It's not realistic.
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Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #187 on: May 12, 2022, 11:20:11 AM »
The article is quite well stated. Come on isn't much if s response. Care to elaborate? I'm asking sincerely
Yes it's well articulated but it makes no sense. And he's wrong that we never taught"secular" studies. He's going in the wrong direction.

Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #189 on: May 12, 2022, 11:36:14 AM »
Yes it's well articulated but it makes no sense. And he's wrong that we never taught"secular" studies. He's going in the wrong direction.

"We" is a broad term. there are hundreds of schools, each with varying levels of secular education, and yes, some with none at all. But that's beside the point. Unless I'm misreading, that's not what he's saying. He's not advocating for schools not to teach any secular studies, but rather saying that the *argument* shouldn't be that the secular studies are substantially equivalent, but that the yeshiva education system is a valid form of education that shouldn't be subject to any kind of equivalency standard. Each individual yeshivah should be able to choose how much secular studies they wish to teach, but the yeshiva system as a whole is a legitimate educational system that should be allowed by NYS.
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Online hvaces42

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #190 on: May 12, 2022, 11:51:48 AM »
"We" is a broad term. there are hundreds of schools, each with varying levels of secular education, and yes, some with none at all. But that's beside the point. Unless I'm misreading, that's not what he's saying. He's not advocating for schools not to teach any secular studies, but rather saying that the *argument* shouldn't be that the secular studies are substantially equivalent, but that the yeshiva education system is a valid form of education that shouldn't be subject to any kind of equivalency standard. Each individual yeshivah should be able to choose how much secular studies they wish to teach, but the yeshiva system as a whole is a legitimate educational system that should be allowed by NYS.
Do you know why they require substantial equivalency?  The substantial equivalency test is only there so we can avoid the mandatory attendance that was sought in Yoder. This sounds like goalpost moving. First it was we shouldnt be required to go to non-religious schools because we can provide similar education. Now its let us decide what level of education even if that level is set at zero.
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Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #191 on: May 12, 2022, 12:12:56 PM »
Do you know why they require substantial equivalency?  The substantial equivalency test is only there so we can avoid the mandatory attendance that was sought in Yoder. This sounds like goalpost moving. First it was we shouldnt be required to go to non-religious schools because we can provide similar education. Now its let us decide what level of education even if that level is set at zero.
never heard of Yoder ( and I see no reason to care ). 
We have a right to educate our children the best way we know. No need for equivalence or educated the way they do. 

Offline Choshive Yid

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #192 on: May 12, 2022, 12:13:19 PM »
Then you wonder why they call our community leeches on society. Taking the position that he takes to the end (and unless I am misreading it he is taking the position that we do not need ANY secular studies at all in yeshivos) we are setting up generations of chasidim for failure and reliance on an increasingly hostile government. If we want Wisconsin v Yoder results we better be ready to move our communities to rural America, work the land, etc. You cant grow Chasidish communities in metropolitan areas and not teach any secular studies. It's not realistic.
Some Yeshivos have no secular studies, and very successful people come out. Some have better secular studies than public schools. The Torah was designed by HKB"H, and includes a lot of benefits.

Also, the public school system in NYS is a failing one. What he is saying is that successful students come out of yeshivos, even if they have less English than public schools.

Imagine if NYS wanted to make a law that hatzolah has to take as long as ambulances to come rescue people. The arguement agianst that wouldn't be that the hatzolah ambulances are taking that long already, rather they are going faster, and that's a better system than the public ones, so don't ruin it.
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Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #193 on: May 12, 2022, 12:20:59 PM »
Do you know why they require substantial equivalency?  The substantial equivalency test is only there so we can avoid the mandatory attendance that was sought in Yoder. This sounds like goalpost moving. First it was we shouldnt be required to go to non-religious schools because we can provide similar education. Now its let us decide what level of education even if that level is set at zero.
in terms of goal posts. This was always yiddens view. The tzemach tzedek and reb Yitzchak Vilozhin both went to fight the Russian government and maskilim who wanted those receiving a rabbinical license ( in those days a rabbi was part of the government and they had some power ). Would need to have some secular education. They both fought  this tooth and nail. The Tzemach Tzedek was arrested many times for this and put his life on the line to protect a complete and unvarnished Torah education.

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #194 on: May 12, 2022, 12:21:32 PM »
never heard of Yoder ( and I see no reason to care ). 
We have a right to educate our children the best way we know. No need for equivalence or educated the way they do.
That right emanates from Yoder!!!
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Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #195 on: May 12, 2022, 01:33:32 PM »

https://crownheights.info/op-ed/773243/op-ed-yeshiva-education-its-time-to-be-honest/
legufo,
OT did (perhaps of necessity) articulate this point to the court, early on, in a paper written much better than this Harvard grad,
And I believe parts that paper inspired some of aguda's general strategy

Online AsherO

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #196 on: May 12, 2022, 01:42:18 PM »
legufo,
OT did (perhaps of necessity) articulate this point to the court, early on, in a paper written much better than this Harvard grad,
And I believe parts that paper inspired some of aguda's general strategy

Is the OT document available online? Was it written by an OT-nik? ;)