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« Last edited by henche on January 25, 2018, 02:21:24 PM »

Author Topic: Master Thread of Pet Peeves  (Read 445335 times)

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3740 on: March 13, 2022, 02:39:42 PM »
Why Bigson and not Bigton?

Not proving anything from here, but googled Arabic translation of Esther and came up with:

 في تلك الايام بينما كان مردخاي جالسا في باب الملك غضب بغثان وترش خصيا الملك حارسا الباب وطلبا ان يمدا ايديهما الى الملك احشويروش.

You can try to have Google translate read that to you, but I will point out to you that בגתן ותרש are spelled:

بغثان وترش

Bigson is spelled with a Tha, while Teresh is spelled with a Ta.
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3741 on: March 13, 2022, 02:42:03 PM »
Not proving anything from here, but googled Arabic translation of Esther and came up with:

 في تلك الايام بينما كان مردخاي جالسا في باب الملك غضب بغثان وترش خصيا الملك حارسا الباب وطلبا ان يمدا ايديهما الى الملك احشويروش.

You can try to have Google translate read that to you, but I will point out to you that בגתן ותרש are spelled:

بغثان وترش

Bigson is spelled with a Tha, while Teresh is spelled with a Ta.

How about Farsi?
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3742 on: March 13, 2022, 02:48:50 PM »
How about Farsi?

Trying to find that.

So far I came up with:
 در آن‌ ایام‌، حینی‌ كه‌ مُردخای‌ در دروازه‌ پادشاه‌ نشسته‌ بود، دونفر از خواجه‌سرایان‌ پادشاه‌ و حافظان‌ آستانه‌ یعنی‌ بِغْتان‌ و تارَش‌ غضبناك‌ شده‌، خواستند كه‌ بر اَخْشُورُش‌ پادشاه‌ دست‌ بیندازند.

which reads Bigton wTeresh.  بِغْتان‌ و تارَش‌
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 03:21:24 PM by ExGingi »
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Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3743 on: March 13, 2022, 02:56:30 PM »
This sounds almost like the מדה הי"ד שהתורה נדרשת בה.

Here's some basic study material:


Huh? Where does this preclude his name to be Seresh? I see how it *could* be Teresh, but nowhere does it say that it can't be Seresh; and it's a Persian name so who really knows, unless you mean that they would've spelled it with a Samach.

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3744 on: March 13, 2022, 03:09:56 PM »
Huh? Where does this preclude his name to be Seresh? I see how it *could* be Teresh, but nowhere does it say that it can't be Seresh; and it's a Persian name so who really knows, unless you mean that they would've spelled it with a Samach.

Sounding more and more like the מדה הי"ד שהתורה נדרשת בה.

Are you losing the sight of the forest for the trees?

Just to point out how your argument doesn't even begin to make sense, see the following possuk: וְגָלֻ֣ת הַֽחֵל־הַ֠זֶּ֠ה לִבְנֵ֨י יִשְׂרָאֵ֤ל אֲשֶֽׁר־כְּנַעֲנִים֙ עַד־צָ֣רְפַ֔ת וְגָלֻ֥ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֖͏ִם אֲשֶׁ֣ר בִּסְפָרַ֑ד יִֽרְשׁ֕וּ אֵ֖ת עָרֵ֥י הַנֶּֽגֶב׃

Would you be arguing about the spelling or diacritics of צרפת and ספרד based on how it is spelled in franÁais or espaŮol (or castellano)?
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3745 on: March 13, 2022, 03:12:20 PM »
Huh? Where does this preclude his name to be Seresh? I see how it *could* be Teresh, but nowhere does it say that it can't be Seresh; and it's a Persian name so who really knows, unless you mean that they would've spelled it with a Samach.
We are using the hebrew pronunciation anyhow. How was Achashverosh pronounced in Persian? Was it closer to the English Cyres?
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3746 on: March 13, 2022, 03:24:24 PM »
For all those advocating Seresh, here's a quick question for you (non-Persian names):

How is the name יפת pronounced (i.e. what are the nekudos when it stands for itself)? Same question for the name זרח.

Hint: If בגתן ותרש would be at the end of a Possuk you would probably be arguing that the name is Soresh.
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3747 on: March 13, 2022, 03:27:14 PM »
For all those advocating Seresh, here's a quick question for you (non-Persian names):

How is the name יפת pronounced (i.e. what are the nekudos when it stands for itself)? Same question for the name זרח.
When you have the name by itself in Tanach it's easy prove that the Vuv switched it but if it never appears without a vuv you can't prove either way.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3748 on: March 13, 2022, 03:29:21 PM »
When you have the name by itself in Tanach it's easy prove that the Vuv switched it but if it never appears without a vuv you can't prove either way.

Would you kindly point me to any name in Tanach (male or femaile) that begins with a ת (without a דגש) except for the rules pointed above (כל בגד כפ"ת הסמיך ליהוא רפי etc.)
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3749 on: March 13, 2022, 03:30:03 PM »
We are using the hebrew pronunciation anyhow. How was Achashverosh pronounced in Persian? Was it closer to the English Cyres?
For what it's worth:  https://613tube.com/watch/?v=P8wH00ybn7M
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3750 on: March 13, 2022, 03:33:03 PM »
For what it's worth:  https://613tube.com/watch/?v=P8wH00ybn7M

I almost ROFL hearing this. In any event, the 613tube in the link could be extremely misleading as to the source of this.
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3751 on: March 13, 2022, 03:34:51 PM »
Someone once asked Rí Belsky: in the parsha sometimes פרעה is read with a pey and sometimes with a fey. What did they actually call him? R Belsky answered: if they say good morning then it would be good morning paroh, but hello would be hello faroh!

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3752 on: March 13, 2022, 03:38:35 PM »
Someone once asked Rí Belsky: in the parsha sometimes פרעה is read with a pey and sometimes with a fey. What did they actually call him? R Belsky answered: if they say good morning then it would be good morning paroh, but hello would be hello faroh!

ע"ד הדרש it is brought that the reason that the first מי כמוכה in the שירה is רפי and the second one is דגוש is because the מצרים started drowning and the water got into their throats causing the כ to be pronounced K.
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3753 on: March 13, 2022, 03:39:39 PM »
Someone once asked Rí Belsky: in the parsha sometimes פרעה is read with a pey and sometimes with a fey. What did they actually call him? R Belsky answered: if they say good morning then it would be good morning paroh, but hello would be hello faroh!

I guess that would be true as long as there's no comma after the word Hello.  ;D
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3754 on: March 13, 2022, 03:44:04 PM »
When you have the name by itself in Tanach it's easy prove that the Vuv switched it but if it never appears without a vuv you can't prove either way.
It will always start with a ת with a דגש unless after יהו״א
The actual word starts with אות דגושה. The fact that it loses it sometimes is because of כללי קריאה/דקדוק
Itís possible that in the native language itís more accurate without a dagesh but once switched to Hebrew it follows Hebrew rules.

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3755 on: March 13, 2022, 03:52:07 PM »
It will always start with a ת with a דגש unless after יהו״א
The actual word starts with אות דגושה. The fact that it loses it sometimes is because of כללי קריאה/דקדוק
Itís possible that in the native language itís more accurate without a dagesh but once switched to Hebrew it follows Hebrew rules.

BTW, they were not Persian, as per Targum:

בְּיוֹמַיָא הָאִנוּן וּמָרדֳּכַי יְתֵיב בְּסַנהֶדרִין דְּאַתקֵינַת לֵיהּ אֶסתֵּר בִּתרַע מַלכָּא וְכַד חֲזוֹ תְּרֵין רַברְבָנַיָא כְדֵין בְּנַסוּ וּקצַפוּ וַאֲמַרוּ דֵין לְדֵין הֲלָא מַלכְּתָא בְּפִתגָם מַלכָּא בָּעיָא לְסַלָקָא יָתַן וּלאוֹקָמָא יָת מָרדֳּכַי לֵית רְבוּתָא לְסַלָקָא תְרֵין קְלוֹסַנתּוֹרִין וּלאוֹקָמָא חַד בְּכֵין אִתיָעַטוּ בְלִישָׁנְהוֹן בִּגתָן וָתֶרֶשׁ טִרסָאֵי תְּרֵין רַברְבָנֵי מַלכָּא מִנָטְרֵי פְלָטֵירָא וַאֲמַרוּ לְאַשׁקָאָה סַמָא דְמוֹתָא דִמטוּל לְאֶסתֵּר מַלכְּתָא וּלאוֹשָׁטָא יְדָא בְּמַלכָּא אֲחַשׁוֵרוֹשׁ לְמִקטְלֵיהּ בְּסֵיפָא בְּבֵית דְּמָכֵיהּ :
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3756 on: March 13, 2022, 03:54:48 PM »
And as per גמרא מגילה י״ג
אמר רבי יוחנן בגתן ותרש שני טרסיים הוו והיו מספרין בלשון טורסי

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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3757 on: March 13, 2022, 03:56:00 PM »
BTW, they were not Persian, as per Targum:

בְּיוֹמַיָא הָאִנוּן וּמָרדֳּכַי יְתֵיב בְּסַנהֶדרִין דְּאַתקֵינַת לֵיהּ אֶסתֵּר בִּתרַע מַלכָּא וְכַד חֲזוֹ תְּרֵין רַברְבָנַיָא כְדֵין בְּנַסוּ וּקצַפוּ וַאֲמַרוּ דֵין לְדֵין הֲלָא מַלכְּתָא בְּפִתגָם מַלכָּא בָּעיָא לְסַלָקָא יָתַן וּלאוֹקָמָא יָת מָרדֳּכַי לֵית רְבוּתָא לְסַלָקָא תְרֵין קְלוֹסַנתּוֹרִין וּלאוֹקָמָא חַד בְּכֵין אִתיָעַטוּ בְלִישָׁנְהוֹן בִּגתָן וָתֶרֶשׁ טִרסָאֵי תְּרֵין רַברְבָנֵי מַלכָּא מִנָטְרֵי פְלָטֵירָא וַאֲמַרוּ לְאַשׁקָאָה סַמָא דְמוֹתָא דִמטוּל לְאֶסתֵּר מַלכְּתָא וּלאוֹשָׁטָא יְדָא בְּמַלכָּא אֲחַשׁוֵרוֹשׁ לְמִקטְלֵיהּ בְּסֵיפָא בְּבֵית דְּמָכֵיהּ :
Which non Hebrew language is not really relevant
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3758 on: March 13, 2022, 03:56:16 PM »
And as per גמרא מגילה י״ג
אמר רבי יוחנן בגתן ותרש שני טרסיים הוו והיו מספרין בלשון טורסי

What is that nation called in English?
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Re: Master Thread of Pet Peeves
« Reply #3759 on: March 13, 2022, 04:03:54 PM »
What is that nation called in English?
Turshi?