5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread

[ushdadude]

I thought giant bagel was on the list?

Simanim Checked Salmon/Lox, Anasakis Free Fish: No Additional Kashrus Hidurim: No

[yitzgar]

Simanim Checked Salmon/Lox, Anasakis Free Fish: No Additional Kashrus Hidurim: No

Does the lack of additional huddurim mean they use ou tuna, or is it something else?

[sammyp]

Does the lack of additional huddurim mean they use ou tuna, or is it something else?

They do not use OU Tuna
"Bishul Yisroel Tuna: Yes"

It's other issues

[ushdadude]

They do not use OU Tuna
"Bishul Yisroel Tuna: Yes"

It's other issues

bishul yisroel tuna doesn't automatically mean:

Simanim Checked Salmon/Lox, Anasakis Free Fish

there are OU tunas that are BY but still not hidur.

[sammyp]

bishul yisroel tuna doesn't automatically mean:there are OU tunas that are BY but still not hidur.

Simanim/Anasakis free has no shaychus to Tuna fish at all. (in this context)

OU Tunas are usually only Bishul Yisroel when they are OUP (passover). 
Even thoguh OU poskim recommend using bishul yisroel for Tuna.

[moko]

bishul yisroel tuna doesn't automatically mean:there are OU tunas that are BY but still not hidur.

besides BYMT for pesach, which one?

[aygart]

besides BYMT for pesach, which one?

I think season

[ushdadude]

Simanim/Anasakis free has no shaychus to Tuna fish at all. (in this context)

OU Tunas are usually only Bishul Yisroel when they are OUP (passover). 
Even thoguh OU poskim recommend using bishul yisroel for Tuna.

why don't simanim have to do with tuna fish?

what i think you mean to say is that only the the KFP OU tuna has simanim checked

besides BYMT for pesach, which one?

can see BY on left side. and it's not KFP and it does not mean the simanim were checked.

[ushdadude]

Simanim/Anasakis free has no shaychus to Tuna fish at all. (in this context)

OU Tunas are usually only Bishul Yisroel when they are OUP (passover). 
Even thoguh OU poskim recommend using bishul yisroel for Tuna.

There are 2 major issues with tuna.
1) bishul yisroel- not exclusive to fish
2) simanim- the OU will give a hechsher on tuna cans even if the simanim aren't checked.but there Poskim will admit that they personally don't eat it.

any canned tuna that has simanim checked is also going to be BY. that's probably why you conflated the 2

[moko]

why don't simanim have to do with tuna fish?

what i think you mean to say is that only the the KFP OU tuna has simanim checkedcan see BY on left side. and it's not KFP and it does not mean the simanim were checked.

wow. I learn new things every day. Thank you

[sammyp]

There are 2 major issues with tuna.
1) bishul yisroel- not exclusive to fish
2) simanim- the OU will give a hechsher on tuna cans even if the simanim aren't checked.but there Poskim will admit that they personally don't eat it.

any canned tuna that has simanim checked is also going to be BY. that's probably why you conflated the 2

Im not sure if that it accurate.

The BY Tuna is cooked on the boat, like most Tuna. To be BY, there has to be a MT, so simanim are irrelevant.

Why is this true the other way around. Just because simanim are checked, why does that have to do with BY?

Regardless, in the context of the Vaad sign, they are not talking about canned tuna.

[ushdadude]

Im not sure if that it accurate.

The BY Tuna is cooked on the boat, like most Tuna. To be BY, there has to be a MT, so simanim are irrelevant.

I confirmed that BY tuna does not mean the simanim are checked with the OU. I don't know the logistics of how that's works.

Why is this true the other way around. Just because simanim are checked, why does that have to do with BY?

doesn't have to be but in reality it is. I've never seen a heimish hechsher (who checks simanim) that isn't BY. i don't know about the KFP OU tuna because i've never seen it.

Regardless, in the context of the Vaad sign, they are not talking about canned tuna.

what are they talking about?

[sammyp]

I confirmed that BY tuna does not mean the simanim are checked with the OU. I don't know the logistics of how that's works.doesn't have to be but in reality it is. I've never seen a heimish hechsher (who checks simanim) that isn't BY. i don't know about the KFP OU tuna because i've never seen it.what are they talking about?

I assume these places are using Heimeshe brands with the BY Tuna and if needed, Simanim are checked on those cans. I don't know how they can have BY without checking the simanim. That doesn't sound right.

They are talking about fresh fish being delivered without simanim. Not canned Tuna. That is not nogea when they use the BY tuna anyways.

Like this store is using BY Tuna, and still does not check simanim, according to the Vaad's info.

[ushdadude]

I assume these places are using Heimeshe brands with the BY Tuna and if needed, Simanim are checked on those cans. I don't know how they can have BY without checking the simanim. That doesn't sound right.

They are talking about fresh fish being delivered without simanim. Not canned Tuna. That is not nogea when they use the BY tuna anyways.

Like this store is using BY Tuna, and still does not check simanim, according to the Vaad's info.

Maybe this brand doesn't cook on the boat.

I'm terms of the local stores, my mind didn't even go to fish that's not canned. So maybe they mean BY because the store itself is cooking it. Interesting

[sammyp]

Maybe this brand doesn't cook on the boat.

I'm terms of the local stores, my mind didn't even go to fish that's not canned. So maybe they mean BY because the store itself is cooking it. Interesting

No, you seem confused.

No bagel store is cooking Tuna fish. And everything they cook themselves is bishul Yisroel anyways. (If not, it would be not considered kosher)

There is a specific heter with canned Tuna, which some rely on reluctantly.

That is the check for "Bishul Yisroel Tuna", specific to Tuna. That is canned Tuna.

The next box on the Vaad listed is "Simanim Checked Salmon/Lox, Anasakis Free Fish: " That is specific for the Salmon- fresh- coming into the store already skinned. Halchicly fish needs simanim. Some rely on the Salmon's unique color. Others hold the color is sometimes manipulated with chemicals and real simanim are required. Anasakis is a seperate issue.

This particular store gets only BY canned Tuna, but does not check Simanim on the Salmon.

"Other hidurim" includes a lot more

[ushdadude]

No, you seem confused.

No bagel store is cooking Tuna fish. And everything they cook themselves is bishul Yisroel anyways. (If not, it would be not considered kosher)

There is a specific heter with canned Tuna, which some rely on reluctantly.

That is the check for "Bishul Yisroel Tuna", specific to Tuna. That is canned Tuna.

The next box on the Vaad listed is "Simanim Checked Salmon/Lox, Anasakis Free Fish: " That is specific for the Salmon- fresh- coming into the store already skinned. Halchicly fish needs simanim. Some rely on the Salmon's unique color. Others hold the color is sometimes manipulated with chemicals and real simanim are required. Anasakis is a seperate issue.

This particular store gets only BY canned Tuna, but does not check Simanim on the Salmon.

"Other hidurim" includes a lot more

I actually just reached out to the Vaad and they clarified it the same way and pointed out that it's all on their site  Thanks


So going back to the original question though, BY canned tuna does not necessarily mean the simanim were checked. I reached out to the vaad to clarify

[aygart]

. Others hold the color is sometimes manipulated with chemicals and real simanim are required.

FWIW, I did a bunch of research and found that astaxanthin will only color the flesh of a fish that is naturally orange and make it a deeper color but will not color the flesh of a fish that is naturally white.

[yitzgar]

.

"Other hidurim" includes a lot more

Thanks. If it was just the fish and the tuna, it's easily avoidable, but I am very curious to know what the other things are

[sammyp]

FWIW, I did a bunch of research and found that astaxanthin will only color the flesh of a fish that is naturally orange and make it a deeper color but will not color the flesh of a fish that is naturally white.

True. That is why OK accepts salmon without simanim. But there are other methods actyally used to color the flesh of the fish.

That is one reason Reb Moshe Feintein zt"l required the fish to have actual simanim.

https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/1115/the-tell-tail-sign/

[sammyp]

Thanks. If it was just the fish and the tuna, it's easily avoidable, but I am very curious to know what the other things are

There are many, many issues. How separate dairy/ meat and sometimes fish kitchens are apart from each other. Which suppliers establishment gets their supplies from. (Mehudar establishments have more restrictions where to buy their material from.) Onions and eggs overnight. Who has access to the kitchen. No mashgiach temidi or even working mashgiach. How well vegies are cleaned. The list goes on.

According to the Vaad, only what they list as "extra hidurim" meets the same standards as KCL Lakewood, or Kehila Kashrus Brooklyn.
Those are usually considered standard middle level hashgochos.
Nirtbater, Volover, Eidah, Rubin, and the like have extra stringencies. (Small but major example: in chicken if they check for tzumas hagidin. If they let liver be kashered after 3 days when frozen)

The Vaaad says "You should be aware that all the vendors who received all of the checks have sacrificed financial expense and culinary expertise to achieve this" to be labeled as mehudar. So there must be many differences.