5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread

[chbochur]

I'm not taking it that far, I'm asking for verification that the ovens used in the pizza shops (along with all other keilim that pose a halachic question) were never used for cholov stam, (i wouldn't question it unless I heard the issue already raised) your mesorah can be that there are no issues, mine is that there are...)

[Cheesecake]

I'm not taking it that far, I'm asking for verification that the ovens used in the pizza shops (along with all other keilim that pose a halachic question) were never used for cholov stam, (i wouldn't question it unless I heard the issue already raised) your mesorah can be that there are no issues, mine is that there are...)

Why would you be concerned if it hasn't been used for 24 hours? Are they making there pizza so spicy as to be a davar charif?

[dealfinder85]

Why would you be concerned if it hasn't been used for 24 hours? Are they making there pizza so spicy as to be a davar charif?

im not taking  a side in this, but thats only for bdieved, not lechatchila

[chbochur]

You bring up an interesting point, your saying it's a sofek and therefore can rely on it not being a Ben yomo, as a sofek dirabonon (that's what I understood from your statement - not sure where dovor chorif comes in, although arguably the spices might and definitely the union's and other vegetables put on the pizza turn it into a davar chorif)
Issue is you can't say it's a sofek if it's something that can get verified or something that someone knows the answer to but might not tell you

[sammyp]

This entire CS keilem issue is only a very small part of the reason there is a need for a mehudar list.

[chbochur]

You are probably right I just don't want to hear the other parts

[sammyp]

Look what's going on in our neighbor Queens. Coming to the Five Towns soon.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0RDtCLise-RLTc3UmVqM0VvTjg/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0RDtCLise-RWU14MkY2MXFPaDQ/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0RDtCLise-RaFZMRzRfN1hlSkk/view?usp=drivesdk

[Yitzshpitz]

I don't know the sugyas well but I think you guys are underestimating the vaad of 5t and their understanding of the kashrus issues that arise in restaurants. If you really have serious doubts, call the vaad or the halacha hotline and Im sure they can explain to you why despite your concerns they gave the certification. Rand people on a forum won't have all the answers.R Eisen as well as other rabbis on vaad are extremely qualified and very respected in the kashrus/rabbinic communities.

[ushdadude]

I don't know the sugyas well but I think you guys are underestimating the vaad of 5t and their understanding of the kashrus issues that arise in restaurants. If you really have serious doubts, call the vaad or the halacha hotline and Im sure they can explain to you why despite your concerns they gave the certification. Rand people on a forum won't have all the answers.R Eisen as well as other rabbis on vaad are extremely qualified and very respected in the kashrus/rabbinic communities.

well said

[sammyp]

There are some facts you are apparantly unaware of. The Halacha Hotline are the same people who run "the list". They might give you some politically correct answer, but they hold you can only eat from establishments which are on the list.

As for Rabbi Eisen, he does not set Vaad policy. He just works for them. He does set Kehila Kashrus policy which holds a much higher standard. The list is at that level, which is the standard of most accepted reputable Kashrus organizations.

[ushdadude]

There are some facts you are apparantly unaware of. The Halacha Hotline are the same people who run "the list". They might give you some politically correct answer, but they hold you can only eat from establishments which are on the list.

As for Rabbi Eisen, he does not set Vaad policy. He just works for them. He does set Kehila Kashrus policy which holds a much higher standard. The list is at that level, which is the standard of most accepted reputable Kashrus organizations.

I really think you owe rabbi eisman an apology. Do you honestly think someone as reputable as him would represent an organization that feeds the public trief?

[Yitzshpitz]

There are some facts you are apparantly unaware of. The Halacha Hotline are the same people who run "the list". They might give you some politically correct answer, but they hold you can only eat from establishments which are on the list.

As for Rabbi Eisen, he does not set Vaad policy. He just works for them. He does set Kehila Kashrus policy which holds a much higher standard. The list is at that level, which is the standard of most accepted reputable Kashrus organizations.

Have you contacted R Eisen or someone from the vaad about you concerns? Also, what do you mean "politically correct answer"? If its a question in halacha they can explain to you the reasoning of the vaad and why the Five Towns (almost everyone) relies on them even if they might have come to different conclusion or dont rely on certain heterim.

If you have already done all of that, then do as you please but don't on a public forum bash a respected vaad with very chashuv talmedei chachumim on it who represent the organization. For the record, I have never heard a Rav publicly say that the vaad's kashrus level is invalid.

[sammyp]

You have never heard any Rov? Really?!? One prominent Rov actually did many times and got slammed for doing so. It's too bad Kashrus and politics get so intertwined. That is also why the list thing is so hush hush. But they have a much more l'chatichila standard. They also caught many things in different establishments. And, btw, there are even higher standards for those who want to he machmir. But here we are discussing an average God fearing Jew.

[chbochur]

I don't know the sugyas well but I think you guys are underestimating the vaad of 5t and their understanding of the kashrus issues that arise in restaurants. If you really have serious doubts, call the vaad or the halacha hotline and Im sure they can explain to you why despite your concerns they gave the certification. Rand people on a forum won't have all the answers.R Eisen as well as other rabbis on vaad are extremely qualified and very respected in the kashrus/rabbinic communities.

Although I respect the organization and believe that they keep to their standards in kashrus very strictly, there are certain things that they are meikel in for example cholov stam, and while that is accepted by the community i as an individual would not touch it, the issue is that once this is their standard they are (from my understanding) meikel in all regards to this issue including the keilim which need to be kashered.
Once again they are a very good hechsher but I am personally machmir
(I once asked a rov regarding a certain eiruv he told me "it's mihudar shebimihudar yet the machmir shebimachmir won't use it" - not exactly comparing but the point of me being more machmir then the hashgachah is the same)

[Yitzshpitz]

You have never heard any Rov? Really?!? One prominent Rov actually did many times and got slammed for doing so. It's too bad Kashrus and politics get so intertwined. That is also why the list thing is so hush hush. But they have a much more l'chatichila standard. They also caught many things in different establishments. And, btw, there are even higher standards for those who want to he machmir. But here we are discussing an average God fearing Jew.

Who said the reason he got slammed was because of politics, maybe it was a halachic machlokes and they just didn't want him to make a big stink about it and confuse people if there is a halachic basis on which to rely??! (And to prevent fighting)

And who exactly determines what "an average god fearing jew" is and what standards they should abide by? If our rabbonim are signing off on this hechsher and not telling us otherwise (maybe yours are so thats fine for you) that means they have determined that it is an acceptable kashrus standard for the average Jew and I am sure someone who knows kashrus well could explain to you what they are doing. Just because one or 2 Rabbis (out of like 50 rabbis) don't like the standard of the vaad that doesn't make it not a fine hechsher for the average good frum jew.

[Yitzshpitz]

Although I respect the organization and believe that they keep to their standards in kashrus very strictly, there are certain things that they are meikel in for example cholov stam, and while that is accepted by the community i as an individual would not touch it, the issue is that once this is their standard they are (from my understanding) meikel in all regards to this issue including the keilim which need to be kashered.
Once again they are a very good hechsher but I am personally machmir
(I once asked a rov regarding a certain eiruv he told me "it's mihudar shebimihudar yet the machmir shebimachmir won't use it" - not exactly comparing but the point of me being more machmir then the hashgachah is the same)

It's perfectly ok to be personally machmir on an issue. I even agree with your point that if a significant percentage of people in the community are makpid on cholov yisrael then perhaps the vaad should reconsider adjusting their standards (although it would be difficult).

What is not acceptable is to publicly post defamatory remarks about an established and reputable vaad hashrus, which is what the 5t vaad is and one that many believe is one of the better hashgachas out there.

[sammyp]

Although I respect the organization and believe that they keep to their standards in kashrus very strictly, there are certain things that they are meikel in for example cholov stam, and while that is accepted by the community i as an individual would not touch it, the issue is that once this is their standard they are (from my understanding) meikel in all regards to this issue including the keilim which need to be kashered.
Once again they are a very good hechsher but I am personally machmir
(I once asked a rov regarding a certain eiruv he told me "it's mihudar shebimihudar yet the machmir shebimachmir won't use it" - not exactly comparing but the point of me being more machmir then the hashgachah is the same)

You are mixing apples with oranges. First of all, the toalim issue is much bigger than a CS issue. Second of all, every city Eiruv has to rely on various leniencies. According to the Mishna Berura, a Baal Nefesh and/or a Yarei Shamayim shoud not use any of our large city eiruvin. Just sayin'.

[chbochur]

You are mixing apples with oranges. First of all, the toalim issue is much bigger than a CS issue. Second of all, every city Eiruv has to rely on various leniencies. According to the Mishna Berura, a Baal Nefesh and/or a Yarei Shamayim shoud not use any of our large city eiruvin. Just sayin'.

I never brought up bugs (although in my circles we would be allot more strict on cholov stam then a sofek of toiloim) and I'm not trying to mix it up with eiruvin I'm just saying in certain cases a individual will/should choose to be machmir even if it's mihudar according to the cities hashgachah standards, and FYI according to most/all poskim it's preferred be machmir when it comes to cholov stam (similar to what it says regarding eiruvin)

[sammyp]

Who said the reason he got slammed was because of politics, maybe it was a halachic machlokes and they just didn't want him to make a big stink about it and confuse people if there is a halachic basis on which to rely??! (And to prevent fighting)

And who exactly determines what "an average god fearing jew" is and what standards they should abide by? If our rabbonim are signing off on this hechsher and not telling us otherwise (maybe yours are so thats fine for you) that means they have determined that it is an acceptable kashrus standard for the average Jew and I am sure someone who knows kashrus well could explain to you what they are doing. Just because one or 2 Rabbis (out of like 50 rabbis) don't like the standard of the vaad that doesn't make it not a fine hechsher for the average good frum jew.

"Who says"? He did. And he explained it too. That is already well known.

"Who determines"? AKO And if you don't know who they are, than you have no business discussing this issue.

Our Rabonim are "not telling us otherwise"? "One or two Rabbis"? "Someone who knows kashrus"? 

Let's start from the end. I know a little about kashrus and have spoken to many experts in the filed. I do know what is going on, but will not blog about it. And it's not just one or two Rabbis. Many Rabbis are not involved with kashrus. It'snot their field. And from those who do know kashrus, many are not happy about the local standards. Why would you expect you Rov to "tell you otherwise"? Does he tell you to stop doing all other things which he does not approve of? You have to ask your Rov and be willing to listen to his answer. If he sees you are on the defense, he wont tell you anything.

And the reason local standards are not on par to Brooklyn is because there is no demand for it here. Everyone here is fine with the way it is. In Brooklyn people wouldn't go for it. For example, that is why Kehila Kashrus stopped allowing their mashgichim to check vegetables anymore. There was an outcry there when bugs were found. No outcry here.

[sammyp]

I never brought up bugs (although in my circles we would be allot more strict on cholov stam then a sofek of toiloim) and I'm not trying to mix it up with eiruvin I'm just saying in certain cases a individual will/should choose to be machmir even if it's mihudar according to the cities hashgachah standards, and FYI according to most/all poskim it's preferred be machmir when it comes to cholov stam (similar to what it says regarding eiruvin)

Chazon Ish and Reb Moshe zt"l had valid heterim for CS.(Although now there is a new problem that all CS might be Cholov treifa, but that's a different issue, and a more serious one.)

In your circles they are more  machmir on CS, an issur d'rabonon, than tolaim which is 5 lavim each bug? I can't imagine! And it'snot a sofeik. Lettuce, blueberries, strawberries and many other products start off as muchzak b'tolaim. Especially in this season. (According to the experts there are 6 different types of bugs in and out of the blueberries right now!) Just because you do not know abut it, does not create a sofeik.

If you want to learn more about the bugs, we happen to have one of the biggest tolaim experts locally in GG. Go there and ask him to show you the bugs. Once he points them out to you, your attitude will change.