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Author Topic: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread  (Read 680311 times)

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #840 on: July 06, 2016, 07:48:07 PM »

If you want to learn more about the bugs, we happen to have one of the biggest tolaim experts locally in GG. Go there and ask him to show you the bugs. Once he points them out to you, your attitude will change.

But gg is under the vaad so we can't trust him :)

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #841 on: July 06, 2016, 07:51:00 PM »
But gg is under the vaad so we can't trust him :)

I never even implied that you can't trust anybody who works for the Vaad. Rabbi Eisen also works for the Vaad, but his own Kehila Kashrus has a higher standard. But as a worker for the Vaad, they only follow Vaad policy as they are told.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #842 on: July 06, 2016, 08:13:01 PM »
You bring up an interesting point, your saying it's a sofek and therefore can rely on it not being a Ben yomo, as a sofek dirabonon (that's what I understood from your statement - not sure where dovor chorif comes in, although arguably the spices might and definitely the union's and other vegetables put on the pizza turn it into a davar chorif)
Issue is you can't say it's a sofek if it's something that can get verified or something that someone knows the answer to but might not tell you
I'm saying if it's not a ben yomo (and we don't consider pizza a davar charif), you're allowed to eat -  it's already b'dieved.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #843 on: July 06, 2016, 08:13:40 PM »
This entire CS keilem issue is only a very small part of the reason there is a need for a mehudar list.
Agreed. I just don't think that's a reason.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #844 on: July 06, 2016, 08:57:53 PM »
"Who says"? He did. And he explained it too. That is already well known.

"Who determines"? AKO And if you don't know who they are, than you have no business discussing this issue.

Our Rabonim are "not telling us otherwise"? "One or two Rabbis"? "Someone who knows kashrus"? 

Let's start from the end. I know a little about kashrus and have spoken to many experts in the filed. I do know what is going on, but will not blog about it. And it's not just one or two Rabbis. Many Rabbis are not involved with kashrus. It'snot their field. And from those who do know kashrus, many are not happy about the local standards. Why would you expect you Rov to "tell you otherwise"? Does he tell you to stop doing all other things which he does not approve of? You have to ask your Rov and be willing to listen to his answer. If he sees you are on the defense, he wont tell you anything.

And the reason local standards are not on par to Brooklyn is because there is no demand for it here. Everyone here is fine with the way it is. In Brooklyn people wouldn't go for it. For example, that is why Kehila Kashrus stopped allowing their mashgichim to check vegetables anymore. There was an outcry there when bugs were found. No outcry here.

The fact that an anonymous Rabbi in your vague  story questioned the standard of kashrus of the vaad means very little to anyone on these forums. If you'd like to share a detailed account of what you asked to who and how that person responded via pm that would be nice so I can verify. Additionally, whoever you spoke to is not the only authority on the matter. Furthermore, how do you know that Rabbi Eisen doesn't agree with the standards that are in place at the 5t vaad, the fact that in Brooklyn they have stricter standards doesn't prove about what is considered acceptable. Nor does it show what Rabbi Eisen actually  holds is an acceptable hashgacha for a community as a whole as there could be several factors for Brooklyn's kashrus. I am sure in Bnei Brack they have even stricter standards. That doesn't mean that the 5t kashrus is unacceptable.

Maybe threre is no "outcry" in 5t because the majority of Rabbinim (many who do know kashrus, perhaps as well as you :) ) determined that the standard of the vaad is acceptable for the regular frum jew.

Also, you were the one that said that the vaad is below the standard for an average frum jew, i never claimed that. So I was just saying that although that may be your opinion or your Rabbi's opinion that is a very subjective and clearly others disagree of what is standard for the average yid.

I completely respect and understand chumrahs but making unsubstantiated claims or putting down the vaad because you disagree, is not right. Remember, there are a lot of Rabbonim and jews in the 5t that support the vaad. I'd stay way from even sofek avak loshon horah...it might be a chumrah but whatever... ;)

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #845 on: July 06, 2016, 09:11:13 PM »
You have never heard any Rov? Really?!? One prominent Rov actually did many times and got slammed for doing so.
Is that the same one who said Hotzolah members were mechalel shabbos and only stopped when Hotzolah threatened to not respond to calls from his members?
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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #846 on: July 06, 2016, 09:19:32 PM »
I completely respect and understand chumrahs but making unsubstantiated claims or putting down the vaad because you disagree, is not right. Remember, there are a lot of Rabbonim and jews in the 5t that support the vaad. I'd stay way from even sofek avak loshon horah...it might be a chumrah but whatever... ;)

I will not be more specific, but it is not "an anonymous Rabbi", most people know who I am talking about. I am also not dealing with chumras. There are some very serious issues incolved.

You might want to do some homework. You would be surprised how many Rabbis are really comfortable with the local kashrus. I do not believe "most Rabbis" have a say at all in the Vaad's policies, or are even active members of the Vaad. But they have to choose their battles. The 5t is a very big place and there is a lot of good here,  but some things still have to be worked on. The Rabbis have to choose which battles to address for their own members. Be it Shaabos, tznius, davening, kashrus etc.. Each place needs tailor made chizuk for their kehila.

The reason the standards here are below OU is because there is no demand for anything better. Everyone is happy with what they have. And what is worse is some people eat from establishments without the Vaad's hechsher. There is a place off of Central which does not meet Vaad standards, has a low level bogus certification, and people are fine with it. People also eat by non-certified Dunkin Donuts which is not kosher.

Every Rabbi has to choose their battles. But you should have a discussion, do some research, and see what is going on. like I did. If there would be a demand for it, things would improve quickly.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #847 on: July 06, 2016, 09:27:06 PM »
And by the way, many many Rabbis and people in town go by the list. At least four major schools that I know of also adhere to the list.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #848 on: July 06, 2016, 09:52:08 PM »
And by the way, many many Rabbis and people in town go by the list. At least four major schools that I know of also adhere to the list.
What a stupid thing to say.  I'm not sure why im responding but...
1) many rabbinic take on chumras, lifnim meshuras hadin.  Many other people also do that. Don't make it halacha. Furthermore, many rabbanim  will tell people who are no on the proper level befafka NOT to take on chumras because it will backfire (how many people frum out or become baalai  teshuvah and 2 years later are worse  off than the were to begin with)
2) as a community organization, servicing hundreda of families, schools have to be stringent for those who are machmir. Same reason why many schools have a peanut free policy.
Duh
Now maybe go bash more rabbanim, organizationa, and the entire community since apparently u don't feel loshen hora  will send u to gehinom.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #849 on: July 06, 2016, 10:17:45 PM »
What a stupid thing to say.  I'm not sure why im responding but...
1) many rabbinic take on chumras, lifnim meshuras hadin.  Many other people also do that. Don't make it halacha. Furthermore, many rabbanim  will tell people who are no on the proper level befafka NOT to take on chumras because it will backfire (how many people frum out or become baalai  teshuvah and 2 years later are worse  off than the were to begin with)
2) as a community organization, servicing hundreda of families, schools have to be stringent for those who are machmir. Same reason why many schools have a peanut free policy.
Duh
Now maybe go bash more rabbanim, organizationa, and the entire community since apparently u don't feel loshen hora  will send u to gehenom.

It's a lot easier to rant on a blog than it is to do some research, isn't it? Did you even bother watching the videoes I posted eralier? I've seen the same thing from local establishments. That's not a chumra, my friend. I care about what I eat. I did my research. I know what's going on. I know Rabbi Eisen will privately tell people to eat only at certain places locally. Take the time. Speak to those who know. It might take a few weeks. Then post your findings.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #850 on: July 06, 2016, 10:24:45 PM »
It's a lot easier to rant on a blog than it is to do some research, isn't it? Did you even bother watching the videoes I posted eralier? I've seen the same thing from local establishments. That's not a chumra, my friend. I care about what I eat. I did my research. I know what's going on. I know Rabbi Eisen will privately tell people to eat only at certain places locally. Take the time. Speak to those who know. It might take a few weeks. Then post your findings.
Like I said up-thread, I do not know this sugya  to any real degree. That is why I rely on my own, competent rov. And yes, I do ask him.
As far as ranting, to me it seems like you've been doing most of the ranting here.
Continue your bashing spree my friend.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #851 on: July 06, 2016, 10:34:31 PM »
Chazon Ish and Reb Moshe zt"l had valid heterim for CS.(Although now there is a new problem that all CS might be Cholov treifa, but that's a different issue, and a more serious one.)

In your circles they are more  machmir on CS, an issur d'rabonon, than tolaim which is 5 lavim each bug? I can't imagine! And it'snot a sofeik. Lettuce, blueberries, strawberries and many other products start off as muchzak b'tolaim. Especially in this season. (According to the experts there are 6 different types of bugs in and out of the blueberries right now!) Just because you do not know abut it, does not create a sofeik.

If you want to learn more about the bugs, we happen to have one of the biggest tolaim experts locally in GG. Go there and ask him to show you the bugs. Once he points them out to you, your attitude will change.
True they hold of valid heterim but even reb moshe didn't want a school to change over to cholov stam for financial reasons (shows that there is validity to being machmir) I'm not trying to down play toiloim, there's a famous moshul, someone used to bring his own personal milk to kolel every day for his own coffee and everyday it would be used by the time he got to it one day he writes that it's personal, next day it was still missing, second day he writes "stealing is a issur dioraiysa!!!" and it was still taken, third day he writes "cholov stam" and it wasn't touched.
While this story doesn't make much sense halachicly it's just something that yirei shomayim take very seriously, cholov akum is brought down in seforim as something that is 'mitamtem' the mind and heart, it puts a person on a downhill in terms of yiras shomayim. In my circles this is taken very seriously. That being said we don't say this is a bigger aveirah then the other, if something is ossur then it's ossur, we don't start looking for heteirim to make it muttar and of course bugs are ossur and would not be eaten, but if someone heard something about bugs but there was a hechsher on it there's a chance they would  eat there, but if they heard there might be an issue of cholov akum even though there's a hechsher they'd stay far away (and we treat cs as ca)
Although halachicly it might not sound proper, in our hashkafah it is extremely important for one to work on his yiras shomayim, and definitely not lower it (not even take a chance of lowering it)

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #852 on: July 06, 2016, 10:41:03 PM »
Like I said up-thread, I do not know this sugya  to any real degree. That is why I rely on my own, competent rov. And yes, I do ask him.
As far as ranting, to me it seems like you've been doing most of the ranting here.
Continue your bashing spree my friend.
No problem. As long as you ask. You have a right to llsten to your Rabbi. But don't impose his views on everyone else. Many Rabbanim do not agree on this. In fact, maybe show your Rov the videos I referenced and see what he says. I am curious what he would say. That's not chumros.
I am not ranting. I have done extensive research on this. I have spoken to experts locally and around the country. I was hoping to cause awareness which would create a demand, which would in effect raise the bar.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #853 on: July 06, 2016, 10:46:04 PM »
No problem. As long as you ask. You have a right to llsten to your Rabbi. But don't impose his views on everyone else. Many Rabbanim do not agree on this. In fact, maybe show your Rov the videos I referenced and see what he says. I am curious what he would say. That's not chumros.
I am not ranting. I have done extensive research on this. I have spoken to experts locally and around the country. I was hoping to cause awareness which would create a demand, which would in effect raise the bar.
LOL You're a funny person. Once you get bored with this topic, you should try out for AGT. I think you  would be a good comedian.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #854 on: July 06, 2016, 10:49:12 PM »
I'm saying if it's not a ben yomo (and we don't consider pizza a davar charif), you're allowed to eat -  it's already b'dieved.
I'm understanding you to say that you can walk into a pizza shop with not kosher keilim (doesn't matter if it's from bosor bicholov or ca or even treif) and although there are other kosher pizza shops sit down and consider it a bidieved and say it's muttar because it's not a Ben yomo?

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #855 on: July 06, 2016, 10:51:16 PM »
That's the difference between you and I. For you this is comedy. For me it's about Fear of God. One bug is five lavim. Five sets of malkus. A serving of salad can have multiple insects. It is metamtem es halev and prevents someone from understanding his learning. I didn't just hit the keyboard. I did extensive research. It's not a joke.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #856 on: July 06, 2016, 10:52:42 PM »
I will not be more specific, but it is not "an anonymous Rabbi", most people know who I am talking about. I am also not dealing with chumras. There are some very serious issues incolved.

You might want to do some homework. You would be surprised how many Rabbis are really comfortable with the local kashrus. I do not believe "most Rabbis" have a say at all in the Vaad's policies, or are even active members of the Vaad. But they have to choose their battles. The 5t is a very big place and there is a lot of good here,  but some things still have to be worked on. The Rabbis have to choose which battles to address for their own members. Be it Shaabos, tznius, davening, kashrus etc.. Each place needs tailor made chizuk for their kehila.

The reason the standards here are below OU is because there is no demand for anything better. Everyone is happy with what they have. And what is worse is some people eat from establishments without the Vaad's hechsher. There is a place off of Central which does not meet Vaad standards, has a low level bogus certification, and people are fine with it. People also eat by non-certified Dunkin Donuts which is not kosher.

Every Rabbi has to choose their battles. But you should have a discussion, do some research, and see what is going on. like I did. If there would be a demand for it, things would improve quickly.

If your whole point here is to say that one should ask their Rav on a personal basis about where they should eat, then the point could have been made in one sentence. Everyone would agree that one should ask and listen to their rav. I do have a Rav that said its fine for me to eat at any place in 5t that is under vaad. I hope that doesn't offend you and even if I dont know all the shylas involved I can rely on him and the vaad. Your Rav might disagree. That is how everything goes in Judaism, one opinion says this and someone else argues. But there is no need to bash on one who relies on what their rav or vaad has allowed them to eat. Also, ripping on the 5t as a community is unnecessary and not very nice.

Everyone ahould ask their Rav (as kashrus are not simple) and adhere as such. Period. Anything else said borders on loshon harah.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #857 on: July 06, 2016, 10:59:20 PM »
True they hold of valid heterim but even reb moshe didn't want a school to change over to cholov stam for financial reasons (shows that there is validity to being machmir) I'm not trying to down play toiloim, there's a famous moshul, someone used to bring his own personal milk to kolel every day for his own coffee and everyday it would be used by the time he got to it one day he writes that it's personal, next day it was still missing, second day he writes "stealing is a issur dioraiysa!!!" and it was still taken, third day he writes "cholov stam" and it wasn't touched.
While this story doesn't make much sense halachicly it's just something that yirei shomayim take very seriously, cholov akum is brought down in seforim as something that is 'mitamtem' the mind and heart, it puts a person on a downhill in terms of yiras shomayim. In my circles this is taken very seriously. That being said we don't say this is a bigger aveirah then the other, if something is ossur then it's ossur, we don't start looking for heteirim to make it muttar and of course bugs are ossur and would not be eaten, but if someone heard something about bugs but there was a hechsher on it there's a chance they would  eat there, but if they heard there might be an issue of cholov akum even though there's a hechsher they'd stay far away (and we treat cs as ca)
Although halachicly it might not sound proper, in our hashkafah it is extremely important for one to work on his yiras shomayim, and definitely not lower it (not even take a chance of lowering it)
I just read your post and want to point out that I am also makpid on CY. I am also afraid the heterim don't apply nowadays for a number of reasons. But nobody will tell you it's worse than bugs. Every single bug is 5 sets of malkus. Each salad can, and probably do have a few. And bugs are also.metamtem es halev. That applies to any of the maacholos asuros.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #858 on: July 06, 2016, 11:03:09 PM »
LOL You're a funny person. Once you get bored with this topic, you should try out for AGT. I think you  would be a good comedian.

And by the way. I don't even know what AGT is. Maybe for those who do, a lower Kashrus standard sufices.

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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #859 on: July 06, 2016, 11:08:03 PM »
I think this thread has been hijacked long enough. please take it to pm so we can discuss useful things here.