5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread

[ushdadude]

Regardless, the lawsuit has good standing and the burden of proof is on the Vaad to prove they had reason to slander.

so you think this is a good thing?

[sammyp]

so you think this is a good thing?

No. Absolutely not. This is a huge Chillul Hashem.

But it was caused by the Vaad not willing to go to the two batei dinim they were summonsed to. They were also offered Zabla. First they agreed, then changed their minds.

This would have stayed out of the public eye if they settled in Beis Din.

The situation now is very unfortunate. I do not blame the restaurant owners. But this is a huge Chilul Hashem that could have been avoided.

[ushdadude]

No. Absolutely not. This is a huge Chillul Hashem.

But it was caused by the Vaad not willing to go to the two batei dinim they were summonsed to. They were also offered Zabla. First they agreed, then changed their minds.

This would have stayed out of the public eye if they settled in Beis Din.

The situation now is very unfortunate. I do not blame the restaurant owners. But this is a huge Chilul Hashem that could have been avoided.

Does this change your opinion of the restauranteur? Do you think the vaad cost them 2mm or they being vengeful?

[Saulius]

No. Absolutely not. This is a huge Chillul Hashem.

But it was caused by the Vaad not willing to go to the two batei dinim they were summonsed to. They were also offered Zabla. First they agreed, then changed their minds.

This would have stayed out of the public eye if they settled in Beis Din.

The situation now is very unfortunate. I do not blame the restaurant owners. But this is a huge Chilul Hashem that could have been avoided.

It would assume that the Vaad has their gedolei hador who they ask their shaylos to, and they were told not to respond to the summons. The Toveah went to a Beis Din in Lakewood, which is run by somebody who is not even accepted in Lakewood and is not considered a respectable person.

https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/998956/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-must-rabbonim-appear-in-beis-din/ 

[sammyp]

It would assume that the Vaad has their gedolei hador who they ask their shaylos to, and they were told not to respond to the summons. The Toveah went to a Beis Din in Lakewood, which is run by somebody who is not even accepted in Lakewood and is not considered a respectable person.

https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/998956/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-must-rabbonim-appear-in-beis-din/

Interesting shiur.

However:

1) There were two separate hazmonos. Another establishment went to another reputable Beis Din in Brooklyn. The only reason they did not end up in court was because they didn't want to lay out the money.

2) A Rabbi cannot pasken on himself that he is above the law. If this Rov consulted with any Gedolim, he would have mentioned that in this shiur.

3) Not all Rabonei hoair were summonsed to din, as this Rov says in this shiur. Each Beis Din summonsed around eight different Rabonim. Only those who put out letters or announced in Zoom meetings defaming their restaurants were summonsed to din.

4) Other great local Rabonim, some older than this Rov of the shiur, actually wrote teshuvos to these Rabonim explaining why they were obligated to respond to the hazmonos. That alone removes any heter he says in that shiur.

5) They were also offered zabla, which means they can choose their own Dayan or take it to a different Bais Din. At first they agreed, then they re-negged.

There is a lot more behind the scenes here. The Vaad was too haughty to believe it would end up in court. They thought it would just go away. Afterwards they went into panic mode and damage control.

This is very unfortunate and is a major Chillul Hashem. It should have been settled in Beis Din. It was a silly mistake the few Vaad members named in the hazmana made.

(As an aside, there was a group of other Rabonim also fighting the Vaad and threatening to open their own hashgocho a year or two ago. The Vaad realized they just want "kavod" so they added them on to the Vaad's kashrus committee. That tactic worked for that group. For many it's all about kavod and power. It's a real shame. But many local Rabonim disagree with the way the Vaad handled this.)

[shiframeir]

I read the entire lawsuit. I also read all the letters the Vaad put out over the past year or so.

ahh so u dont know anything. i asked if you have any proof that a the rabbis of the community/Vaad get money from the vaad and your source is the terrible joke of a rushed complaint from a counterparty.

[sammyp]

ahh so u dont know anything. i asked if you have any proof that a the rabbis of the community/Vaad get money from the vaad and your source is the terrible joke of a rushed complaint from a counterparty.

For the record, your tone doesn't really deserve a response.

I don't think I ever implied there was money involved for the Rabonim. Only Rabbi Eisen is making the big bucks. He also happens to be the one behind all of this. For the other Rabonim it's kavod and control. It's not very many Rabonim involved in this. It's only a number of them. That's why only some are mentioned in the two hazmanos.

[shiframeir]

I don't think I ever implied there was money involved for the Rabonim. Only Rabbi Eisen is making the big bucks. He also happens to be the one behind all of this. For the other Rabonim it's kavod and control. It's not very many Rabonim involved in this. It's only a number of them. That's why only some are mentioned in the two hazmanos.

The bases for this lawsuit seems to be because the Vaad told people not to eat there for personal gain, not because the standard of kashrus was any lower. This is clear and provable.
The Vaad is control hungry. And money hungry. There also happens to be a lot of improvements they need to make.

im sorry for my tone i cant help but be incredulous when u post about lots of rabbis who i know work leshem shamayim, and you say things like they are in it for personal gain and "this is clear and provable"  and then when asked for sources you say u read the lawsuit and the letters (that EVERYONE read).

Your quotes are above. now you are saying that when u referred to Vaad you referred really only to its employee R Eisen? that is inconsistent, as the local rabbis are the ones who said dont accept new hashgachos (not R eisen), and they get no money (and honestly no control or kavod as can be clear here). Do you see why i didnt get the hating on the local rabbis by you without any support?

[sammyp]

im sorry for my tone i cant help but be incredulous when u post about lots of rabbis who i know work leshem shamayim, and you say things like they are in it for personal gain and "this is clear and provable"  and then when asked for sources you say u read the lawsuit and the letters (that EVERYONE read).

Your quotes are above. now you are saying that when u referred to Vaad you referred really only to its employee R Eisen? that is inconsistent, as the local rabbis are the ones who said dont accept new hashgachos (not R eisen), and they get no money (and honestly no control or kavod as can be clear here). Do you see why i didnt get the hating on the local rabbis by you without any support?

Rabi Eisen is the one pushing the Rabbis. And there is a lot of kovod and honor involved. There is also the fear of the control some feel they have by being the only Vaad in town.

The Rabbis who are behind Mehadrin Kosher are great men in their own right. They did not lower themselves to put out letters exposing the reasons why they feel a new hashgocho is needed. They also refused to talk the Vaad to Beis Din even though the Vaad slandered them. They didn't feel it was appropriate for Rabbi to dispute other Rabbi in public. They did speak to the Vaad first to try to make improvements.

I assume when you refer to the Rabbis you know work l'shem shomayim, you are referring to those named in the Hazmana. I do not understand how any Rabbi can bash two dignified Talmidei chochomim l'shem Shamyaim! If these Mehadrin Rabbis would have a hashgacha in Brooklyn (before this happened), the Vaad would accept their product without any hesitation. In fact, one of these Rabbi answered the popular local Halacha Hotline for years. He was trusted with the most serious shailos. After opening Mehadrin Kosher, he all of a sudden became unreliable and was fired!

All local Rabbi should get along with each other, even when they disagree. This is true if they have competing shuls, mikvahs, or kosher certifications.

[aygart]

For the record, your tone doesn't really deserve a response.

And your tone is just eidel. Lol

[AsherO]

And your tone is just eidel. Lol

+1

@shiframeir is asking legitimate questions. @sammyp can choose not to answer and blame it on someone else’s tone, but then his position would lose credibility.

/not posting as a mod

[ushdadude]

In fact, one of these Rabbi answered the popular local Halacha Hotline for years. He was trusted with the most serious shailos. After opening Mehadrin Kosher, he all of a sudden became unreliable and was fired!

Rabbi Forst was anti the new hechsher so I don't see how he can continue working for Rabbi Forst's hotline

[sammyp]

+1

@shiframeir is asking legitimate questions. @sammyp can choose not to answer and blame it on someone else’s tone, but then his position would lose credibility.

/not posting as a mod

I believe I answered all questions.

Any specific questions I left open?

[AsherO]

I believe I answered all questions.

Any specific questions I left open?

I’ll let the person who asked the questions answer that, I appreciate both sides of the conversation.

[sammyp]

Rabbi Forst was anti the new hechsher so I don't see how he can continue working for Rabbi Forst's hotline

You are aware that Rabbi Forst's shul had a "list" of which Vaad establishments they felt met their standards. Many establishments did not make the list. In essence, they had their own Vadd which although did not certify ant additional establishments, they did double-certify many of them.

That shul had to send out many letters trying to explain why what they did was o.k., while Mehadrin is not.

I only meant that the Halacha Hotline trusted his judgement for all aspects of yoreh deeah and issurei kares. Then  obviously he can be trusted for kosher certification.

The fact that this Rabbi was trusted up until now proves this entire issue is not whether Mehadrin is reliable. It is more of a political issue.

[ushdadude]

You are aware that Rabbi Forst's shul had a "list" of which Vaad establishments they felt met their standards. Many establishments did not make the list. In essence, they had their own Vadd which although did not certify ant additional establishments, they did double-certify many of them.

That shul had to send out many letters trying to explain why what they did was o.k., while Mehadrin is not.

I only meant that the Halacha Hotline trusted his judgement for all aspects of yoreh deeah and issurei kares. Then  obviously he can be trusted for kosher certification.

The fact that this Rabbi was trusted up until now proves this entire issue is not whether Mehadrin is reliable. It is more of a political issue.

Yes, Rabbi Forst did it correctly.

[sammyp]

Yes, Rabbi Forst did it correctly.

As I have been saying, there is no Kashrus issue with Mehadrin Kosher. You seem to also feel that way. You just don't like the way it was done.

(You might be correct about that. There was a lot of behind the scenes before they opened to try to up the standard in a more peaceful way.)

That is why this lawsuit, and the Dinei Torah which led to it is valid. You cannot slander a competitor with baseless claims because you don't like the competition. A Rabbi cannot use his position and make claims the Kashrus is not acceptable just because of the way it was done. That seems to be the basis of the lawsuit.

In addition, the Vaad shut down, or at least is trying to shut down the Rabbi Forst mehudar list too. Now it is almost impossible to know which establishments are truly mehudar. Last summer when the Vaad attacked Mehadrin Kosher, they promised transparency and mehudar lists. That never happened.

Our city is too diverse. The same way the Vaad accommodates those who do not want a stricter standard, they should accomadate those who do want that standard. Now people who want to keep more strict guidelines have nowhere to turn to find out where they can eat. The establishments also do not feel the need to upgrade to a mehudar status because they know nobody will know the difference.

(A small example: As many know, the KAJ dropped Empire based in what they felt were Kashrus standards. They are now under a different supervision. The Vaad, trying to keep their promise to be transparent, out out a letter stating they looked into it, and still accept that poultry. They have a right to do that. But they refused to explain why they disagreed with KAJ. Anybody who wants to be mehader and who follows the KAJ have no way to know where they can eat, and whee they can buy their chicken. (Although GG does provide specific shechita by request. There is no specific supervision guaranteeing those requests are being fulfilled accurately)

Another example is chometz after Pesach. Most Vaadim do not allow purchasing chometz from C&S distributor l'chatchila. That is OU, Star-k, Chof-K, AKO and most Vaadim standard. This was also the opinion of Rabbi Belsky ztl. Our Vaad does allow our local stores to purchase chometz from C&S im.mediately after Pesach. Those who want to be mehader have no place to shop after Pesach locally.)

Either they should create a Vaad Mehudar division, like places such as Montreal have, or they are going to have understand a new Hashgacha is needed.

There is a lot to write about the "standard" issue. And I am not confident Mehadrin is taking care of any of the issues. I wish they would. But I do understand the basis of the lawsuit.

[yitzgar]

What was the kajs issue with empire?

[JMHO]

www.5townscentral.com/2021/05/30/vaad-hakashrus-of-5-towns-fr-announces-breakthrough-consumer-profiles/

[sammyp]

What was the kajs issue with empire?