Author Topic: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested  (Read 168176 times)

Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #380 on: October 14, 2013, 07:49:25 PM »
Maybe the correct avenue is to somehow petition NJ/NY to require a get in divorce proceedings for couples who were married under religious law.
Not a posek but I think this would be highly problematic. There actually is a similar discussion currently which many rabbanim oppose strongly (even the ones who care about the women)
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Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #381 on: October 14, 2013, 08:00:04 PM »
Not a posek but I think this would be highly problematic.
Namely?
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Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #382 on: October 14, 2013, 08:03:20 PM »
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Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #383 on: October 14, 2013, 08:04:39 PM »
Who is doing any forcing?
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Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #384 on: October 14, 2013, 08:06:57 PM »
Who is doing any forcing?
Either the court requires a get and it's problematic. Or it doesn't and it doesn't do anything
I think there is a recent rjj journal article about it
There is pending legislation in NY about this
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Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #385 on: October 14, 2013, 08:08:57 PM »
Either the court requires a get and it's problematic. Or it doesn't and it doesn't do anything
I think there is a recent rjj journal article about it
There is pending legislation in NY about this
Link?
I still don't get why having the court punt the case to beis din until settled there is a problem.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #386 on: October 14, 2013, 08:31:55 PM »
Ever hear of Separation of church and state? That's why these suggestions won't happen.
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Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #387 on: October 14, 2013, 08:34:16 PM »
Ever hear of Separation of church and state? That's why these suggestions won't happen.
Ever heard of binding arbitration?
But I'm no legal nor halachic expert.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #388 on: October 14, 2013, 08:44:26 PM »
My problem is with this-

The secular court won't issue the divorce until the get is finalized.

Would be a nice required addendum onto a marriage license.  Any lawyers around care to chime in? Can't this problem (men being able to legally divorce and not give a get) be solved through religious couples legally agreeing to a get via beis din before finalizing a civil divorce?

I doubt the state would add anything to the marriage license for religious convenience.
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Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #389 on: October 14, 2013, 08:50:05 PM »
Again, nothing to do with the state.
Is there no way for a lawyer to add something to a marriage contract that it has to be annulled via arbitration (Beis Din) before going for a secular divorce.
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Offline Name Changed

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #390 on: October 14, 2013, 08:55:29 PM »
Maybe the correct avenue is to somehow petition NJ/NY to require a get in divorce proceedings for couples who were married under religious law.
I was thinking the same thing.

Not a posek but I think this would be highly problematic. There actually is a similar discussion currently which many rabbanim oppose strongly (even the ones who care about the women)
Why would this be considered a forced get?

Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #391 on: October 14, 2013, 09:44:48 PM »
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/getart1.html
Seems like the provision is actually already in place and apparently very problematic
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 10:02:54 PM by Ergel »
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Offline ADanFan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #392 on: October 14, 2013, 10:25:28 PM »
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/getart1.html
Seems like the provision is actually already in place and apparently very problematic

Very interesting how the article begins in 1980 and states the increasing need for the
"ever-growing problem of spouses whose partners refuse to give/accept a Get, leaving them in a state of Igun. Igun - being chained"

If 1980 was a growing problem then it certainly has grown since!
Time for Orthodox Rabbis to agree on one format that is Halachically acceptable.
Many Rabbis do the current format - It's just not on their "checklist" of mandatory items...

It's now the time to be mandatory.

Offline Dan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #393 on: October 14, 2013, 10:26:54 PM »
Get Asifah!
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Offline dd321

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #394 on: October 14, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #395 on: October 14, 2013, 10:40:40 PM »
Very interesting how the article begins in 1980 and states the increasing need for the
"ever-growing problem of spouses whose partners refuse to give/accept a Get, leaving them in a state of Igun. Igun - being chained"

If 1980 was a growing problem then it certainly has grown since!
Time for Orthodox Rabbis to agree on one format that is Halachically acceptable.
Many Rabbis do the current format - It's just not on their "checklist" of mandatory items...

It's now the time to be mandatory.
It been growing since b.c.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline ADanFan

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #396 on: October 14, 2013, 10:52:17 PM »

Offline SamKey

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #397 on: October 15, 2013, 12:36:40 AM »
@Dan one big problem with that is which Rabbi is qualified? Only Chareidi?  Unless you require the Ravi that officiated to do the divorce? What happens when he dies, any reform Rabbi can do the divorce? so she stays an aguna

Offline Let3

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #398 on: October 15, 2013, 02:05:57 AM »
all men or co-ed?
Then would be a "shiduch crisis" asifa...

Offline yuneeq

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #399 on: October 15, 2013, 09:07:56 AM »
@Dan one big problem with that is which Rabbi is qualified? Only Chareidi?  Unless you require the Ravi that officiated to do the divorce? What happens when he dies, any reform Rabbi can do the divorce? so she stays an aguna

The first question is easy. They couple themselves choose before marriage which rabbis will be arbitrating in case of divorce. I'm not sure what they can do about the second q. Maybe they can add the names of a posek or two who will decide where the couple will arbitrate.
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