FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested

[myb821]

My only problem with them is that it seems from the undercover operation that they would do this without doing any research into the situation. How could they agree to do this without speaking to the agunahs rabbi or anyone else to ascertain what was going on.

[sky121]

My only problem with them is that it seems from the undercover operation that they would do this without doing any research into the situation. How could they agree to do this without speaking to the agunahs rabbi or anyone else to ascertain what was going on.

Also, it's a question of the money.

[sky121]

This is so sad. And it's only going to get worse. Sigh.

[myb821]

This is so sad. And it's only going to get worse. Sigh.

+1

[skyguy918]

Why did they arrest the shliach for the get (Potash) and not the eidim?

[Achas Veachas]

Why did they arrest the shliach for the get (Potash) and not the eidim?

Do they know who they are?

[george]

Why did they arrest the shliach for the get (Potash) and not the eidim?

I don't see what the eidim would be arrested for. There's no reason to assume they had any clue about the plans for violent coercion.
But the reports are that six additional, people have been arrested - how do you know that does not include the eidim?

[skyguy918]

מי שהדין נותן שכופין אותו לגרש את אשתו ולא רצה לגרש. בית דין של ישראל בכל מקום ובכל זמן מכין אותו עד שיאמר רוצה אני ויכתוב הגט והוא גט כשר. וכן אם הכוהו עכו"ם ואמרו לו עשה מה שישראל אומרין לך ולחצו אותו ישראל ביד העכו"ם עד שיגרש הרי זה כשר. ואם העכו"ם מעצמן אנסוהו עד שכתב הואיל והדין נותן שיכתוב הרי זה גט פסול. ולמה לא בטל גט זה שהרי הוא אנוס בין ביד עכו"ם בין ביד ישראל. שאין אומרין אנוס אלא למי שנלחץ ונדחק לעשות דבר שאינו מחוייב בו מן התורה כגון מי שהוכה עד שמכר או עד שנתן. אבל מי שתקפו יצרו הרע לבטל מצוה או לעשות עבירה והוכה עד שעשה דבר שחייב לעשותו או עד שנתרחק מדבר האסור לעשותו אין זה אנוס ממנו אלא הוא אנס עצמו בדעתו הרעה. לפיכך זה שאינו רוצה לגרש מאחר שהוא רוצה להיות מישראל ורוצה הוא לעשות כל המצות ולהתרחק מן העבירות ויצרו הוא שתקפו וכיון שהוכה עד שתשש יצרו ואמר רוצה אני כבר גרש לרצונו. לא היה הדין נותן שכופין אותו לגרש וטעו בית דין של ישראל או שהיו הדיוטות ואנסוהו עד שגירש הרי זה גט פסול הואיל וישראל אנסוהו יגמור ויגרש. ואם העכו"ם אנסוהו לגרש שלא כדין אינו גט. אע"פ שאמר בעכו"ם רוצה אני ואמר לישראל כתבו וחתמו הואיל ואין הדין מחייבו להוציא והעכו"ם אנסוהו אינו גט:

I'm sure there must be recent poskim that have dealt with this issue (although not necessarily in writing owing to the its sensitive nature), but there is a secondary issue of dina d'malchusa. The Rambam, by saying בית דין של ישראל בכל מקום ובכל זמן, was coming to preclude the notion that there are any special requirements of this beis din above the bare minimum (more than 3, real smicha, and a number of others). I would think that it's possible dina d'malchusa would supersede this halacha.

This is of course in addition to any other issue of impropriety that may be raised by the complaint.

[skyguy918]

Do they know who they are?

The complaint says they signed their first names on a document but not their last names, so they don't necessarily have their names, but then again it makes it sound like the shliach tried to obscure his identity as well, and that didn't stop the FBI from figuring out who he was. Not to mention the fact that the 4th defendant is listed as First Name Unkown Last Name Unknown (FNU LNU) aka "Yaakov". That guy was much more involved (it makes it seem like he's the head 'thug') though so maybe it's different.

I don't see what the eidim would be arrested for. There's no reason to assume they had any clue about the plans for violent coercion.
But the reports are that six additional, people have been arrested - how do you know that does not include the eidim?

Based on the complaint, the 2 Rabonim and the FNU LNU guy is obvious. Anybody else would have to be some sort of conspiracy charge. I'm not saying they should arrest the eidim, just that I would think from a conspiracy standpoint, there's no difference between the eidim and the shliach. Unless the shliach has to be there while they get the 'rotze ani' out of the husband?

I hadn't thought about the additional 6 mentioned, it's certainly possible. They haven't charged those people though, while they have charged the shliach.

[Super Speed]

Here is the entire complaint:

http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/filed-complaint-and-aw.pdf

 

So sad. I have no words, terrible situation.

[george]

I'm not saying they should arrest the eidim, just that I would think from a conspiracy standpoint, there's no difference between the eidim and the shliach. Unless the shliach has to be there while they get the 'rotze ani' out of the husband?

The shliach absolutely has to go to the site of the coercion and accept the get on behalf of the wife, at the time. How else would the coercion work? They force the husband to sign the get on the spot and give it to shliach on the spot.
Since shliach must be at the scene anyway, its possible he was also one of the "thugs" executing the coercion. That would definitely explain his arrest. The eidim on the other hand, need no involvement other than signing that they wife made the guy her shliach. No crime there.

[puddles]

Also, it's a question of the money.

+100. I love that they are helping these women but charging fees, especially such high ones is ludicrous.

[george]

+100. I love that they are helping these women but charging fees, especially such high ones is ludicrous.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions unless you know all the facts - did the rabbis pocket all the money or did they indeed use the funds to pay the sofer, thugs, etc?
You may be right to question the money issue, but how can you talk conclusively at this point?

sky121 said it right:

Also, it's a question of the money.

[skyguy918]

The shliach absolutely has to go to the site of the coercion and accept the get on behalf of the wife, at the time. How else would the coercion work? They force the husband to sign the get on the spot and give it to shliach on the spot.
Since shliach must be at the scene anyway, its possible he was also one of the "thugs" executing the coercion. That would definitely explain his arrest. The eidim on the other hand, need no involvement other than signing that they wife made the guy her shliach. No crime there.

I hear ya, I guess I wasn't thinking through the practicalities of the process. I was never actually suggesting that the eidim were involved per se, but if the whole complaint against the shliach was that he was present at the beis din, so were they. Obviously that wasn't the complaint against the shliach, and your explanation makes a lot of sense.
It is interesting though, because from the document it sounds like the shliach did and said the least of them, in which case he'll have a much easier time defending the charges against him than the other 3.

[Dave321]

Lets face it, this wont be the only charges against them.

The yeshiva is going to come under heavy scrutiny. I sure hope they have all their books in order.

[Achas Veachas]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions unless you know all the facts - did the rabbis pocket all the money or did they indeed use the funds to pay the sofer, thugs, etc?
You may be right to question the money issue, but how can you talk conclusively at this point?

sky121 said it right:

+1
These 'operations' can get really expensive...

[george]

I hear ya, I guess I wasn't thinking through the practicalities of the process. I was never actually suggesting that the eidim were involved per se, but if the whole complaint against the shliach was that he was present at the beis din, so were they. Obviously that wasn't the complaint against the shliach, and your explanation makes a lot of sense.
It is interesting though, because from the document it sounds like the shliach did and said the least of them, in which case he'll have a much easier time defending the charges against him than the other 3.

Basically, to me it seems this investigation was designed mainly to go after the organizers of the operation, not the thugs or other pawns who were just following orders.

[sky121]

+1
These 'operations' can get really expensive...

Obviously none of us really know exactly what went down but I do suspect that the FBI might have looked the other way if it weren't for all the money involved.
Just my thoughts.

[Dan]

I'm sure the IRS will want their pound of flesh as well...

[alpicone]

Is such a Get Halachicly valid?