FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested

[skyguy918]

Is such a Get Halachicly valid?

Yes, see Achas's quote from the Rambam on the previous page. I'm not holding enough to say that it's a unanimous opinion, but I'm pretty sure it's widely accepted among the poskim.

[george]

Yes, see Achas's quote from the Rambam on the previous page. I'm not holding enough to say that it's a unanimous opinion, but I'm pretty sure it's widely accepted among the poskim.

Aren't there mishnayos that discuss gett m'usah?

[beeweegee]

+1
These 'operations' can get really expensive...

They were charging 60-70 thousand dollars, 50-60 of which was to go directly to the hired "thugs."

[skyguy918]

Aren't there mishnayos that discuss gett m'usah?

Yes of course, I wasn't suggesting that every 'coerced' get is kosher, only that not every 'coerced' get is pasul.

[george]

Yes of course, I wasn't suggesting that every 'coerced' get is kosher, only that not every 'coerced' get is pasul.

From what I remember, there are mishnayos that describe how to do it in a kosher way. CMIIW. My point was that it is not a question in the poskim whether a gett can be coerced in certain situations. Nobody argues on the Mishna.

[Super Speed]

From what I remember, there are mishnayos that describe how to do it in a kosher way. CMIIW. My point was that it is not a question in the poskim whether a gett can be coerced in certain situations. Nobody argues on the Mishna.

From what I heard about 10 people were arrested in conjunction but on the court document it seems they're only trying 4 people is that correct?

[skyguy918]

From what I remember, there are mishnayos that describe how to do it in a kosher way. CMIIW. My point was that it is not a question in the poskim whether a gett can be coerced in certain situations. Nobody argues on the Mishna.

I think we're completely missing each other here. I'm not talking about how the coercion is done, I have no idea whether there are additional halachos regulating that aspect.

There are cases where the mishna or gemara says the husband must divorce his wife and specifies that beis din forces him to if he doesn't want to. In those situations, obviously everyone agrees that forcing the husband produces a kosher get, and as you said it's not a matter of debate because it's clear in the mishna/gemara.

Any other case where the mishna/gemara doesn't specify that beis din forces the husband is far from a 'unanimous' sugya, as you can imagine, and there are subcategories that are treated differently by some poskim. Based on the complaint, this case does seem to fall somewhere in the vastness of the latter category. I think I saw once that some poskim learn that the Rambam's shittah is that if she wants a get and he doesn't want to give it, we can always force him. But that part is far from unanimous. I guess in retrospect my answer to alpicone is only correct with regard to the first category, and in context he may not have been asking about that catogory.

[ilherman]

I see we have big Talmidey chacumim here, maybe it's time for a Torah thread...

[whYME]

I see we have big Talmidey chacumim here, maybe it's time for a Torah thread...

Like this one? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.msg141118#msg141118

[Achas Veachas]

Like this one? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.msg141118#msg141118

Or this one? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12784.0

[whYME]

I feel like we're missing something from this story.

They claim the "husband" and "wife" were undercover FBI agents posing as orthodox jews, I don't see how they could've spoken to the rabbonim etc. for more than 2 minutes without them getting suspicious.

And would this B"D really go through all this without doing any basic investigation of their own into the case, i.e. without speaking to anybody (other than the "wife" and her "brother") familiar with the case, such as whatever Rabonim were involved up to that point?

[whYME]

Or this one? http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12784.0

lol

[Menachem613]

Did the Rabonim pay Maaser on the money?

[myb821]

I feel like we're missing something from this story.

They claim the "husband" and "wife" were undercover FBI agents posing as orthodox jews, I don't see how they could've spoken to the rabbonim etc. for more than 2 minutes without them getting suspicious.

And would this B"D really go through all this without doing any basic investigation of their own into the case, i.e. without speaking to anybody (other than the "wife" and her "brother") familiar with the case, such as whatever Rabonim were involved up to that point?

I said something similar up thread it does not make sense

[Marco Polo]

I said something similar up thread it does not make sense

Not justifying, just saying maybe they were blinded by money. In the briefing posted up-thread, it did say they would pay whatever needed, or something along those lines.

[Achas Veachas]

I feel like we're missing something from this story.

They claim the "husband" and "wife" were undercover FBI agents posing as orthodox jews, I don't see how they could've spoken to the rabbonim etc. for more than 2 minutes without them getting suspicious.

Did you consider that they may have been Frum?

[myb821]

Did you consider that they may have been Frum?

still you would expect them to discuss with the agunas rabbi before agreeing to do this

[Achas Veachas]

still you would expect them to discuss with the agunas rabbi before agreeing to do this

That's why I only quoted the first part of whYME's post...

[whYME]

Did you consider that they may have been Frum?

Yes, but in that case I would think it'd much more likely be a situation like Dweck, using "informants," rather than "agents"
(I guess it is possible that there are frum female special agents out there...)

[good sam]

I'm sure there must be recent poskim that have dealt with this issue (although not necessarily in writing owing to the its sensitive nature), but there is a secondary issue of dina d'malchusa. The Rambam, by saying בית דין של ישראל בכל מקום ובכל זמן, was coming to preclude the notion that there are any special requirements of this beis din above the bare minimum (more than 3, real smicha, and a number of others). I would think that it's possible dina d'malchusa would supersede this halacha.

This is of course in addition to any other issue of impropriety that may be raised by the complaint.

Skyguy, I don't think there are too many places, even in the Rambam's times, where something like this would legal under the law of the land.