FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested

[Baruch]

May be true, but it has nothing to do with him always holding the woman is right. The reason would be because they hold R Epstein's gittin are get me'usah.

Exactly. Most Rabbanim hold that you can't be kofeh just because woman is always right.

[elikay]

My statement wasn't based on hearsay. Unfortunately, sounds like there is a lot of accurate laaz to be motzi on these gittin

Not from what I've (over)heard.

[SuperFlyer]

And I'll disagree that unless someone agreed to be quoted on the internet I don't think it's right to put his name out publicly with such a psak (likely he wouldn't mind, but it's not up for me to decide)

If someone says the r E. psaks are no good, but choose to remain anonymous?
If he thinks his word is true, and he has the capacity to rule against him, and ready to make thousands of kids mamzerim, but is worried having his name published?

Stinks!

Too easy to criticize and remain anonymous. Just read some YouTube comments if unsure....

Unfortunately the gemoro I posted is so often true...

Start reading line 2.

[SuperFlyer]

Unless proven otherwise, r E remains my hero for putting his life at risk, for helping a cause that is way too much forgotten and hidden away, instead of dealing with the real "important" issues such as inter-rabonim politics...

[whYME]

I asked the talmid to ask the posek for me and he reported to me what he told him. That's hearsay?

So basically we have an "anonymous" posting on the internet from somebody who heard from some unnamed posek that the gittin are possul.

If that's not hearsay I'd like to hear what is.

[Bostener]

Unless proven otherwise, r E remains my hero for putting his life at risk, for helping a cause that is way too much forgotten and hidden away, instead of dealing with the real "important" issues such as inter-rabonim politics...

What kind of business is this serving as a (TOEN) lawyer and as a (DAYAN) judge in the same case?

[Chaikel]

So basically we have an "anonymous" posting on the internet from somebody who heard from some unnamed posek that the gittin are possul.

If that's not hearsay I'd like to hear what is.

Someone quoting the anonymous posting?


I find it hard to believe that a reliable, responsible rav would be motzie laz just to answer a talmid or a random person asking a question with no toeles. Even if its true, I fail to see the toeles, not to mention Lashon Hara. I don't want to judge a rabbi, especially since I don't know who, but the gemara states clearly that kol mi shaino yodeah tuv tav bgittin vkedushin lo yehe esek imohem. Is this rabbi a tuv tav? (No getting invited to do a sidur kedushin, unfortunately, doesn't count these days)

If he is, I would ask him:
Why did he only decide it was appropriate to speak up now after its national news?
Why be marbeh mamzerim, and aishes ish biyisroel when we can just be mevatel the first marriages before voiding a get issued by a respected beis din?
Is he active in helping those who received these gittin to get "proper" gittin? Shouldn't that be priority number one before being motzie laz to anyone who asks?

[SuperFlyer]

To underline previous posts:

For those who don't know.

After a get is given, it is cut, so that people won't come and contest it's validity later, and cause mamzeirim etc ch"v.

[Drago]

I'm still waiting for an answer (unless I missed it), to the question I asked Hocker about why bribery in this case doesn't apply if only one party is paying for the services.
Or do the laws of bribery not apply in a case of gittin.

@Hocker, you mentioned you'd look it up. Have you been able to? I'm honestly curious about it.

[meshugener]

I just want to remind everyone here to be very careful.
There's a Chairem d'Rabeinu Ta'am on the one who's motzie la'az on gittin.

and there's no need for a beis din to put you in chairem - you're automatically put into chairem if you're motzie la'az on gittin. At least according to the Rabeinu Ta'am.

So be careful, this is not a joke, you all play with fire.

[SuperFlyer]

I'm still waiting for an answer (unless I missed it), to the question I asked Hocker about why bribery in this case doesn't apply if only one party is paying for the services.
Or do the laws of bribery not apply in a case of gittin.

@Hocker, you mentioned you'd look it up. Have you been able to? I'm honestly curious about it.

Not sure what the case is there (since unsure, I don't judge), but typically when paying beis din, you don't send them money via paypal, rather pay the beis din, as organization, and the dayan has his regular wage, whether he has many people or few people.

Even in the usa I don't believe one tips rabonim.

[Ergel]

I never said all his gittin are passul. A get which is not meuseh doesn't even need a rabbi present. So his presence would not automatically passul anything.
The posek, who yes is yodea btiv gitin (if you really care feel free to pm) just said that kfiya is almost never relevant today and any get that is forced is overwhelmingly likely to be passul.

In terms of bribery-it depends why and how the money are paid. It is mutar to pay judges schar battalah. However that is only if both sides are paying equally. If not you run into issues (see r Moshe in choshen mishpat 2:28:3).
Also depends how the money is paid: if paid upon delivery of get  or as payment to get a get then that would be shochad. If it's paid as schar battalah and both are paying it's heter gamur, of only one is paying the only mareh makomi found was the above mentioned rav Moshe so I'm not sure of it would passul and if it did if that would be a psul doraisa or drabanan. If it's paid as schar ladun it's passul (bach- midrabanan r akiva Eiger quotes someone who is mesupak).
Also it depends for which part of the din is being paid for. If it's for the psak din all the problems above exist. If it's just being paid to issue the seiruv then I just heard two poskim who argued whether that's problematic (one said it was, the other said it's just a souped up hazmanah and not a real din and therefore it's OK for one to pay)

[SuperFlyer]

Why all the bla bla, I think I've summed it up pretty clearly: [you] pay the beis din, as organization, and the dayan has his regular wage, [not earning more or less because of you]

[Ergel]

@chaikel why must this become an angry yelling match?

[Ergel]

Why all the bla bla, I think I've summed it up pretty clearly: [you] pay the beis din, as organization, and the dayan has his regular wage, [not earning more or less because of you]

That is what's mutar. I was trying to discuss what happens if something else was done which unfortunately seems to be the case here
And I don't know common practice, but there is no problem paying the judges directly

[SuperFlyer]

That is what's mutar. I was trying to discuss what happens if something else was done which unfortunately seems to be the case here
And I don't know common practice, but there is no problem paying the judges directly

Why does it seem to be the case?

Why is there no problem paying judges directly?

[Chaikel]

@chaikel why must this become an angry yelling match?

Which part did you feel was yelling? I thought I was quite civil. I would still like my questions answered, especially the one about why now. There is no way that someone involved in gittin (and virtually any Yid over 40) didn't know for the past 20 years that this was happening. If he felt the gittin were pasul why didn't he do something about it. Tens or hundreds of thousand mamzerim is no joke.

[PlatinumGuy]

Which part did you feel was yelling? I thought I was quite civil. I would still like my questions answered, especially the one about why now. There is no way that someone involved in gittin (and virtually any Yid over 40) didn't know for the past 20 years that this was happening. If he felt the gittin were pasul why didn't he do something about it. Tens or hundreds of thousand mamzerim is no joke.

There was some sort of Kol Koire in 2005.

[Ergel]

Which part did you feel was yelling? I thought I was quite civil. I would still like my questions answered, especially the one about why now. There is no way that someone involved in gittin (and virtually any Yid over 40) didn't know for the past 20 years that this was happening. If he felt the gittin were pasul why didn't he do something about it. Tens or hundreds of thousand mamzerim is no joke.

Sorry if misread.
First of all it's not tens of thousands. It's the few that were meuseh. Secondly, who says nothing was ever said before-it has been quoted that rav elyashiv didn't like them (unless they just asked him now). Third of all it may not have been in this ravs domain.

[Ergel]

Why does it seem to be the case?

Why is there no problem paying judges directly?

Because only one side paid. The payment was due on delivery of the get. The amount paid is higher than schar battalah. Should I go on?

That's the din in shulchan aruch and rambam and clear in the gemara (kesubos 105). They are being paid for their lost wages, no problem of paying them at all.