Author Topic: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested  (Read 122843 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #600 on: October 29, 2013, 09:54:36 AM »
Because only one side paid. The payment was due on delivery of the get. The amount paid is higher than schar battalah. Should I go on?

That's the din in shulchan aruch and rambam and clear in the gemara (kesubos 105). They are being paid for their lost wages, no problem of paying them at all.

You are saying that if they couldn't get a get out of a guy, she owed nothing? Proof ?

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #601 on: October 29, 2013, 09:55:45 AM »
Higher than s'char batala? they worked sometimes over a year on a case. A rabbi HAS to earn 10% or less than a lawyer?

Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #602 on: October 29, 2013, 09:57:35 AM »
You are saying that if they couldn't get a get out of a guy, she owed nothing? Proof ?
I believe she was only paying part of it after, you think she'll pay if they don't get a get? Anyways that doesn't really matter if she says "i am paying you in order for you to get me a get" that already is shochad and not schar battalah
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Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #603 on: October 29, 2013, 09:58:36 AM »
Higher than s'char batala? they worked sometimes over a year on a case. A rabbi HAS to earn 10% or less than a lawyer?
Just going based on the FBI facts in this case. They worked a few hours and got $3300/dayan. That's one fancy lawyer
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Offline Chaikel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #604 on: October 29, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »
There was some sort of Kol Koire in 2005.
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Offline Drago

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #605 on: October 29, 2013, 10:07:01 AM »
In terms of bribery-it depends why and how the money are paid. It is mutar to pay judges schar battalah. However that is only if both sides are paying equally. If not you run into issues (see r Moshe in choshen mishpat 2:28:3).

...

Also it depends for which part of the din is being paid for. If it's for the psak din all the problems above exist. If it's just being paid to issue the seiruv then I just heard two poskim who argued whether that's problematic (one said it was, the other said it's just a souped up hazmanah and not a real din and therefore it's OK for one to pay)

Didn't this situation run afoul of both of these issues that you listed above?

Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #606 on: October 29, 2013, 10:09:53 AM »
Didn't this situation run afoul of both of these issues that you listed above?
The first yes: but again I'm not clear as to what the consequences are. And the second, I'm not clear as to what the first din that they did was: did they issue a seiruv? Or a psak of kfiya? I don't know
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #607 on: October 29, 2013, 10:19:50 AM »
Just going based on the FBI facts in this case. They worked a few hours and got $3300/dayan. That's one fancy lawyer

1. Please show me where it says it was done in a few hours.

2. Those fbi people have been briefed very well by some guys that have been treated there, so I guess they had a beautiful file, with the exact info needed, with someone acting as rabbi to testify that it is true what they say.

{Remember: in the USA the federal agents are allowed to induce (basically force) people to commit a crime, just to prove that they are capable of having committed such a crime before. They could go at great length doing so. It is something many people aren't aware of in the USA, but is and remains a very shameful factor. That being said the FBI isn't much of a reference to me}

Offline Yitz

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #608 on: October 29, 2013, 10:27:28 AM »
Maybe they were religious. You can not just be briefed on how to act.

Offline Ergel

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #609 on: October 29, 2013, 10:31:39 AM »
1. Please show me where it says it was done in a few hours.

2. Those fbi people have been briefed very well by some guys that have been treated there, so I guess they had a beautiful file, with the exact info needed, with someone acting as rabbi to testify that it is true what they say.

{Remember: in the USA the federal agents are allowed to induce (basically force) people to commit a crime, just to prove that they are capable of having committed such a crime before. They could go at great length doing so. It is something many people aren't aware of in the USA, but is and remains a very shameful factor. That being said the FBI isn't much of a reference to me}
The report says the beis din convened one I believe. The whole process was august 14 until October 9, not years. I'm not saying I totally believe the FBI but some of the basic facts it's hard to believe are completely fabricated
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #610 on: October 29, 2013, 10:37:15 AM »
{Remember: in the USA the federal agents are allowed to induce (basically force) people to commit a crime, just to prove that they are capable of having committed such a crime before.
That is not entrapment?
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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #611 on: October 29, 2013, 10:54:55 AM »
That is not entrapment?

Not sure what you call it, but they would go to the very extreme, for example, making someone lose his job, when they cannot pay hospital bill for their child, and then offer them money to do a certain job.....

Offline good sam

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #612 on: October 29, 2013, 10:59:30 AM »
It's entrapment only if defendant can show he did not have a predisposition to commit that crime.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #613 on: October 29, 2013, 11:03:53 AM »
Not sure what you call it, but they would go to the very extreme, for example, making someone lose his job, when they cannot pay hospital bill for their child, and then offer them money to do a certain job.....
I get your point but there is a line they can't cross. Entrapment is against the law. John DeLorean is a classic case that comes to mind.
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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #614 on: October 29, 2013, 11:14:12 AM »
I get your point but there is a line they can't cross. Entrapment is against the law. John DeLorean is a classic case that comes to mind.

Yet it is used liberally when convenient.

USA is extremely unfair in many circumstances, with out of proportion jail, for ridiculous crimes.

Offline Bostener

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #615 on: October 29, 2013, 11:28:33 AM »
That is not entrapment?

ME admitted on tape that he has been doing this for years.

He also said on tape how he avoids police getting a hold of him.
Airlines sending me "We're in this together" emails.

Bruh, where were you when my suitcase weighed it 51.50 pounds?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #616 on: October 29, 2013, 11:36:39 AM »

Maybe they were religious. You can not just be briefed on how to act.

I've heard that everyone was Frum.

Offline good sam

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #617 on: November 29, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
The story simplified  ::)

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Offline CountValentine

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #618 on: November 29, 2013, 01:08:57 PM »
The story simplified
Seems pretty simple.
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Offline MoGro17

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Re: FBI Sting Operation; Rabbis Arrested
« Reply #619 on: January 15, 2014, 12:43:14 PM »
A get should never be used as leverage. Period.

If you need leverage for custody, finances, etc, use the beis din and/or the civil system. There are plenty of options for settling the dispute no matter how nasty it gets.

A halachic divorce is not negotiable, however. I understand that many times the wife is at fault and the husband may feel that he is correct in using a get as leverage but I just don't see it because too many times it is abused by the husband.
The Torah allows for a coerced get so I take that to mean that a husband should never be holding it back.

Absolute power, however righteous, is unacceptable.