Tent City Lakewood

[Baruch]

That one was made by one of our "left-wing" co-belligerents...   

Simple-minded people favor belief systems where everything is explained through a central controller.  Perplexed by the complexity of the universe?  Making up a god is far easier than understanding science.  Perplexed by the complexity of society?  Making up an all-powerful conspiracy is far easier than studying economics, history, sociology, psychology, geopolitics, etc.

No one "built" the "system" - its emergence is a complex evolutionary phenomenon.  There are great concentrations of power, just and more often unjust, but they are set against each-other, and they all have their limits.  Even a government with a multi-Trillion-dollar military is very limited, because its power depends on maintaining the illusion of its benevolence, which in the Internet age is becoming ever-more difficult for it to pull off.  No one is in control.  And yet anyone can have some impact.  One person with the right ideas and the ability to broadcast or apply them can change the world.

There is a system, and it's spun against the lower/middle class. And there's almost nothing you can do about it.
Even if you open a tent city, you're still living in a tent!

[Baruch]

Its Jewish communities, which I greatly admire, will (in part thanks to me) lose much of the corrupt political power that some of them presently have, and they will discover that the free market is what favors them best.

Have you ever been evaluated by a Psychologist? I believe you suffer from narcissism. 

[Alex Libman]

This reply is brought to you by...

TopLibertarian.com, and it's popularity rankings of presently best-selling libertarian(ish) books, Web-sites, etc.  No, you won't find me listed there yet.   

They absolutely are separate arguments, but without the first one the second is irrelevant.

I don't agree that without my moral argument the pragmatic argument is irrelevant.  Most of our supporters only agree with the pragmatic argument.  Once we make enough noise, Ocean County politicians will want us to take some land - the cheapest way to shut us up.

Principled libertarian philosophers can think of it as settlement for violating our Homesteader Rights on the current land.  Becoming a principled libertarian philosopher takes many years of study and discipline - few will ever achieve it.  Everyone else can think of it as just a great idea to solve extreme poverty while reducing government spending, creating jobs (even if merely subsistence ones), and stimulating the economy at the same time.

It may save money, but NIMBY.

Homelessness exists everywhere.  As I wrote above, Lakewood can expect a couple hundred homeless people, Tent City or not.  (And since I wrote that new statistics have been published: in spite of all the Sandy relief efforts, this year NJ homelessness is up 16%!)  Having a Tent City makes it less likely that some bum will end up in your backyard literally, which is bad for everybody.

Tent City is NEARBY - Not Even Adjacent Remotely to a Back Yard.   

Look at the map.  These woods contain municipal block #961.02, lot #3 (119.7 acres) and lot #4 (20.23 acres).  That's 106 American Football fields!  The first tents 8+ years ago were deliberately placed deep and were not visible from the road.  We can have a fenced off area in the middle of those woods, with one fenced off entrance.  And if not for government malice, I think we could have switched back to propane or other heating that doesn't generate smoke.

The government can retain the right to spend more for the quality of life of its constituents who are willing to pay for that.

Lots of collectivist fallacies in that one sentence, along with the ridiculous assumption that raising government spending has no consequences.  Have you not been following the news?  Lakewood Township is broke!

Bulldozing Tent Cities is a net loss to "quality of life".  Taxes go up: money that could have been a part of the productive economy, increasing earned "quality of life", instead increases "moral hazard" - unearned rewards for bums who were "at the right place, at the right time", and jumped through the right hoops.  The more money you throw into this problem, the more people will become "homeless" to get free rent - or because all those taxes made their jobs / businesses / savings disappear.  The Welfare State favors not those in greatest need, but those who are best able to manipulate the system.  The number of people living in the streets will still go up, as will the related sanitation problems, crime, etc.  Pouring fuel on the fire - it's the classic negative-feedback cycle of economic collapse!

It is only once you can establish a right to the land that you have any claim. You are FAR from having done so.

In addition to my answer above, I'd like to add that the idea is not new.  According to some, the Lakewood government was ready to hand over this land to our NGO several years ago, but the Lakewood Vaad / Big Yeshiva Inc interests intervened - they wanted the land for themselves...

Sorry, but our NGO got here first.  The merit of "mixing our labor with the land" for 8+ years and helping hundreds of homeless should be more important than Big Yeshiva Inc's political connections.  If this land is sold / given away from under us, our NGO should get a settlement.

Have you ever been evaluated by a Psychologist?

Of course.  And I've always been a big fan of psychoanalysis.  If I wasn't a tax resister, I would go to a psychologist on a regular basis.  I would recommend that for everybody who can afford it, and I hope voluntary charities like ours will someday be able to do more for the mental and emotional health of the poor.

I believe you suffer from narcissism.

A lot of people suffer from narcissism - but I enjoy it.  I'm just that much better at it than they are. 

[Baruch]

A lot of people suffer from narcissism - but I enjoy it.  I'm just that much better at it than they are. 

like!

[aygart]

Let me now make an even bolder prediction: in 20 years, Lakewood will be the regional mecca of libertarian politics!

Its Jewish communities, which I greatly admire, will (in part thanks to me) lose much of the corrupt political power that some of them presently have, and they will discover that the free market is what favors them best.

We will discover this quicker than any other culture group, on average, in part due to our genetic intelligence, culture, and work ethic.  Jews have been at the forefront of most big ideas in economics, good or bad, and a hugely disproportional fraction of top libertarian thinkers have been Jewish.

Lakewood is already ahead with such a high concentration of private schools, private charities, private ambulances, private security, private neighborhoods, private arbitration, etc.  In 1964 Barry Goldwater only got 10% of the Jewish vote, but in today's Lakewood the Jewish community has largely flipped to fiscally conservative Republicans.  It's a step in the right direction.

Jewish Marxism / socialism / communism was a freak fad of overcompensation, a misdirected reaction against stagnant 19th century European monarchy and feudalism.  The death of this fad is long overdue.  Over centuries of diaspora, the European Jewish Community has evolved through natural selection to have an exceptionally good understanding of business and finance - we should be proud of this, not ashamed! 

There is a very close historical link between "antisemitism" and anti-capitalism.  On the flip-side, I think that "Jewish self-esteem", when examined rationally, will naturally gravitate to the free market.

The primary disagreement is with your first point which has little to do with the free market. Even if the government should not own property that should not mean that it should go to whomever grabs it first. Stop with the free market stuff until you establish its relevancy to the discussion. You have not done so.

[aygart]

Please stop with all the nonsensical "brought to you" which are making any semblance of intellect impossible.

I don't agree that without my moral argument the pragmatic argument is irrelevant.  Most of our supporters only agree with the pragmatic argument.  Once we make enough noise, Ocean County politicians will want us to take some land - the cheapest way to shut us up.

Without the first argument it means that you stole land and are saying that the cheapest way for them to take care of the issue you made is for them to let you steal it. Those who support Tent City based upon the pragmatic argument are basing on the premise that it is the government's resposibility to do something for you and will then look for the most cost effective way to do it. Based upon what you have written you should reject that premise.

Principled libertarian philosophers can think of it as settlement for violating our Homesteader Rights on the current land.  Becoming a principled libertarian philosopher takes many years of study and discipline - few will ever achieve it.  Everyone else can think of it as just a great idea to solve extreme poverty while reducing government spending, creating jobs (even if merely subsistence ones), and stimulating the economy at the same time.

Since when do you believe that government should do anything to take care of the poor? With Tent City shutting down I saw that a church is opening its basement to the homeless. Don't you feel that this PRIVATE ENTERPRISE solution is the best one? Your pragmatic argument is in direct contradiction of your libertarian ones. "When you see a contradiction check your premises" -Hugh Akston.

Homelessness exists everywhere.  As I wrote above, Lakewood can expect a couple hundred homeless people, Tent City or not.  (And since I wrote that new statistics have been published: in spite of all the Sandy relief efforts, this year NJ homelessness is up 16%!)  Having a Tent City makes it less likely that some bum will end up in your backyard literally, which is bad for everybody.

Tent City is NEARBY - Not Even Adjacent Remotely to a Back Yard.   

Look at the map.  These woods contain municipal block #961.02, lot #3 (119.7 acres) and lot #4 (20.23 acres).  That's 106 American Football fields!  The first tents 8+ years ago were deliberately placed deep and were not visible from the road.  We can have a fenced off area in the middle of those woods, with one fenced off entrance.  And if not for government malice, I think we could have switched back to propane or other heating that doesn't generate smoke.

The opposition to it is more grassroots than based upon those with political influence. Apparently enough people consider it to be close enough to their backyard to bother them. My impression is that a large portion of supporters are from out of Lakewood (may be wrong about that). I was once meeting with someone from North Jersey in Circa. She questioned the smoke smell. I explained to her that it is from Tent City across the street. She went and took a look after which she said to me that while she had been a supporter of Tent City based on news reports, she now sees where the opposition comes from and that it is much more complicated than she thought. I told her to apply this realization to every news report she reads.

Lots of collectivist fallacies in that one sentence, along with the ridiculous assumption that raising government spending has no consequences.  Have you not been following the news?  Lakewood Township is broke!

Bulldozing Tent Cities is a net loss to "quality of life".  Taxes go up: money that could have been a part of the productive economy, increasing earned "quality of life", instead increases "moral hazard" - unearned rewards for bums who were "at the right place, at the right time", and jumped through the right hoops.  The more money you throw into this problem, the more people will become "homeless" to get free rent - or because all those taxes made their jobs / businesses / savings disappear.  The Welfare State favors not those in greatest need, but those who are best able to manipulate the system.  The number of people living in the streets will still go up, as will the related sanitation problems, crime, etc.  Pouring fuel on the fire - it's the classic negative-feedback cycle of economic collapse!

True. I should have prefaced that this was even if I were to accept YOUR collectivist arguments.

In addition to my answer above, I'd like to add that the idea is not new.  According to some, the Lakewood government was ready to hand over this land to our NGO several years ago, but the Lakewood Vaad / Big Yeshiva Inc interests intervened - they wanted the land for themselves...

Sorry, but our NGO got here first.  The merit of "mixing our labor with the land" for 8+ years and helping hundreds of homeless should be more important than Big Yeshiva Inc's political connections.  If this land is sold / given away from under us, our NGO should get a settlement.

This argument makes sense only if they were to give it away. I agree that it should not be given away to those with political influence OR THOSE WHO JUST GO GRAB. Your grabbing the land is as much brute force as their removing you from it. There is no reason you should get it over a sale to the highest bidder which is the way that any land foreclosed on by the township should be disposed of (if that is how they got it).

You keep invoking liberterianism but have been shying away from how that gives you any rights to steal this land!

[Alex Libman]

Today's Tent City photo album - March, Rally, Township Committee Meeting, March:

My speech delivered at Lakewood Township Committee Meeting earlier tonight:

My name is Alex Libman. I live in Tent City.

There is an old story about a 12th century king, who proclaimed himself to be the ruler of the seas. He sat on the beach and ordered the tide to stop rising. Needless to say, he got his feet wet anyway. Lakewood's anti-homeless legislation will have a similar effect. You cannot legislate away the laws of economics.

According to a recently published report, the "homeless" population of New Jersey was counted at 13,900 - an increase of 16% from the year before. This count did not include me and many other "homeless" people I know. There are many reasons to believe that the more accurate yearly average of homeless population in this state is about 20,000. Countless others are just a paycheck or two away from becoming homeless.

If homeless population was spread homogeneously throughout the state, then Lakewood Township, having roughly 1% of the state's total population, could expect a revolving homeless population of about 200. Of course homeless population is not homogeneously spread, and there are many reasons why Lakewood should be expected to have an above-average rate of homelessness.

Lakewood has roughly three times the population density compared to all of New Jersey, and four times the population density compared to all of Ocean County. As Lakewood is projected to remain the fastest growing town in New Jersey, the percentage of its population who are homeless would naturally be expected to increase. Lakewood has the second largest Industrial Park in the state, and one would expect the largest availability of construction jobs in the state. The Lakewood Bus Terminal is the regional transit hub. All these things attract poor people who are searching for unskilled or low-skilled work. Unfortunately many people end up only finding temporary or part-time work, while it takes them working a lot of overtime to be able to afford the artificially inflated cost of rent.

When it comes to "pulling their weight" in helping the homeless, Lakewood and Ocean County have long tried to pass the buck to someone else. Over the past few years, Lakewood has had the benefit of an organized Tent City. Minister Steve Brigham found many people in this immediate area living on the streets, sleeping under bridges, or camping in the woods alone - possibly trespassing on Private Property, without access to sanitation, burning fires to keep warm without even having a fire extinguisher, and out of reach of social workers and volunteers who would try to help them.

Steve Brigham gave them tents, sleeping bags, and other survival essentials, and soon most of the town's "homeless" converged on a remote long-abandoned piece of so-called "public land", which we now call Tent City. He gave them propane heaters, which emitted no smoke, but which were later banned by the government, forcing most Tent City residents to switch to wood-burning stoves.

We did the best we could. Steve Brigham tried to create a community and a support network that helps the homeless be rehabilitated and improve their employment prospects, but the government sabotaged us at every turn.

The government, at all levels combined, spends $62,000 a year for each family below the poverty line - most of that money goes to corruption and waste. Tent City itself received no taxpayer funding, and almost no government services. As an alternative to putting this number of homeless people in motel rooms, over the years we have saved the taxpayers well over 6 million dollars, not including administrative overhead. Tent City has been the free market voluntaryist response to government failure, and it accomplished a lot more with a lot less!

It seems like there's nothing that government hates more than poor people trying to help themselves. Tent City is now being annihilated by bulldozers, even though there are no officially announced plans to make better use of this land, and many homeless people have no better place to go. This bulldozing, unnecessary police harassment, and incarceration of the poor will cost the taxpayers additional millions of dollars, while just leaving Tent City alone would have cost nothing! Demolishing Tent City to get rid of homelessness is like demolishing a hospital to get rid of illness!

Without a Tent City, homelessness will become a lot more expensive, not only in terms of taxpayer dollars but in environmental and social costs as well. At the same time, Lakewood's School District recently announced that it's "broke"! New Jersey is already ranked as having the highest property taxes in the nation, and as one of the worst places in the country to do business. New Jersey state government's credit rating was recently downgraded, now ranking third from the bottom. There is a limit to how much government can tax and spend!

Another news story that caught my attention this week pertained to my hobby of Computer Science. A new milestone in Artificial Intelligence has been achieved, approaching the goal where more and more jobs presently done by humans will be replaced by thinking machines and robotics. What will happen to the growing fraction of the population that is incapable of pulling their artificially inflated economic weight? The Welfare State cannot help everybody, it can only further suffocate the economy, causing faster flight of brains and capital, which means fewer and fewer available jobs.

Cronyism and socialism aren't working. We have a better way - voluntaryist communities where poor people can live within their means, getting by through part-time work, self-sufficiency, voluntary charity, and mutual aid. All we need from the government is that you let us reasonably homestead remote plots of so-called "public land", respect our negative Rights, and just leave us alone!

Thank you for listening.

[DH Data Recovery]

Lots of homeless marching there... really big crowd

[aygart]

Btw I didn't mean the words sponsored by, I meant all the pictures which will do nothing to advance your cause in this forum.

[churnbabychurn]

Lots of homeless marching there... really big crowd

98.5% of the crowd are just volunteers... Its only Alex and one or two sick victims left.

[Freddie]

Guys, sum up your respective sides in ONE SENTENCE.

Alex holds that Tent City is awesome because __________________.
Litvisher Lakewood dudes hold that Tent City stinks because _____________.

Everyone just bust out your most salient one liner on the issue and let's be done.

[aygart]

Guys, sum up your respective sides in ONE SENTENCE.

Alex holds that Tent City is awesome because __________________.
Litvisher Lakewood dudes hold that Tent City stinks because _____________.

Everyone just bust out your most salient one liner on the issue and let's be done.

who is forcing you to view this thread?

[Baruch]

Guys, sum up your respective sides in ONE SENTENCE.

Alex holds that Tent City is awesome because __________________.
Litvisher Lakewood dudes hold that Tent City stinks because _____________.

Everyone just bust out your most salient one liner on the issue and let's be done.

[Saver2000]

Guys, sum up your respective sides in ONE SENTENCE.

Alex holds that Tent City is awesome because __________________.
Litvisher Lakewood dudes hold that Tent City stinks because _____________.

Everyone just bust out your most salient one liner on the issue and let's be done.

This not a "Litvisher vs alex"  argument.

[Alex Libman]

This reply is brought to you by...

The Thank You Cindy tribute album!

Cindy Lanouette is a superhero volunteer from South Carolina! She originally came to New Jersey to help with the relief efforts after Hurricane Sandy, and learned about Tent City of Lakewood, NJ. Since then she returned to Tent City numerous times, spending about 50 weeks living with us in a tent, providing vital help for Minister Steve and other Tent City residents and volunteers.

Cindy has truly made a positive difference in the lives of the hundreds of people who have been through Tent City over the past two years. Words cannot describe how immensely grateful we are to Cindy for all her help!

What will YOU be remembered for?

Guys, sum up your respective sides in ONE SENTENCE.

Alex holds that Tent City is awesome because __________________.
Litvisher Lakewood dudes hold that Tent City stinks because _____________.

Everyone just bust out your most salient one liner on the issue and let's be done.

This is a message forum, not a 30-second news clip.

Alex holds that Tent City is the least bad solution to a serious problem, because it helps people without bringing us closer to a North-Korea-esque-Welfare-Police-State.

Litvisher/etc people are all individuals, and their opinions vary; but even if the majority of them don't like Tent City, that doesn't entitle them to violate the Property Rights of others.  (The same also applies to people who don't like "Litvisher Lakewood dudes", like the Zoning Nazis in Jackson, even if they are in majority there.)

Btw I didn't mean the words sponsored by, I meant all the pictures which will do nothing to advance your cause in this forum.

You are entitled to your opinion.  All my thumbnails add up to only a few megs per page - hardly a big deal on the modern Internet.  People who still use 2400 baud modems should adjust their Web browsers.  When a site (ex The Lakewood Poop) has too many images I don't like, I just use AdBlock.

98.5% of the crowd are just volunteers... Its only Alex and one or two sick victims left.

If counting people who've put in their appearance in integers, "98.5% of the crowd" would mean at least 197 volunteers.  Thank you, but you overestimate.  All days combined we had about 100 different people rallying with us.  Of course this is only Round One...

The population of Tent City, as of June 18th, is 29.  This is our official count, and it supersedes all other estimates from less informed individuals that have been (mis)reported in the press.

Yes, most of them are apathetic bums who did not participate in the rally.  Yes, I will still fight for their Rights, because when it comes to tyranny - everyone is in the same boat...

Will catch up with other replies later.

[Alex Libman]

Great article by Dave Gahary of the American Free Press -- An Orthodox Final Solution --

Struggling to survive, throngs of homeless are pushed out of NJ's "Tent City" to make way for construction of massive "yeshivas" subsidized by taxpayers.

One of the more biting ironies of recession-plagued America is the drama unfolding in the suburban town of Lakewood, New Jersey, where the homeless in that Ocean County township are being forced to defend themselves not just against the elements and regular police harassment, but against the powerful Orthodox Jewish community intent on stripping the last ounce of dignity from these down-on-their-luck Americans.

With no homeless shelters in the county, under the guidance of Minister Steven A Brigham -- a 12th generation American -- the homeless took up residence in the woods, constructing homes made of canvas tarps, wood, plastic and anything else they could rummage, in what would come to be known as "Tent City". Now, almost eight years later, Tent City is on its way out, a victim of Orthodox complaints of smoke from fires the homeless use to keep warm and cook their food.

The United States Census Bureau in 2010 listed Lakewood as the fastest growing of the Garden State's 566 municipalities, primarily due to that township's Jewish majority. They now constitute the bulk of the population of over 100,000, up a whopping 54% from the last census. The Orthodox population in Lakewood is projected to rise to 220,000 by 2030.

Founded by hard-working Americans in the late 1880s, a blast-iron furnace business kick-started the town's good fortune. Several magnificent estates sprouted around town, helping Lakewood to become a favorite winter retreat for the Eastern elite, including the Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Goulds, Astors and others. President Grover Cleveland would spend his dying days in the town.

In what would be a turning point for Lakewood, a Polish-born rabbi purchased a building in 1943 and erected a yeshiva, a school where Orthodox Jews study their religion's central texts, like the Talmud and Torah, to cater to 13 students. Today, the Beth Medrash Govoha yeshiva serves around 6,500 students and may be the largest of its kind in the world.

The reason for the explosive growth is simple: Orthodox Jews like to proliferate. The average family has between five and eight children.

[...]

Minister Brigham, commenting on the matter, told this reporter: "For their own political gain, the politicians are taking the food out of the mouths of the American taxpayer and setting a banquet in front of those who mock us."

[Click for complete article.]

As I always repeat:  This isn't about any specific ethnic / religious group.  If the Yakuza, Cosa Nostra, La Eme, etc had been acting like the Vaad, it would be just as bad.  Political power corrupts all!  Also don't mistake this as anti-natalist criticism: I am very pro-natalist!  Having lots of kids is a very good thing - if you can pull your economic weight!


Please like our Facebook Page (which is about to pass 6000 likes!) for all the latest.  I will probably be arrested next week, but there are other people who will maintain the Page in my absence...

Please sign up for our new Tent City News Alerts e-mail mailing list as well!

[aygart]

You are losing any credibility you had

From the Wikipedia linked above.

ContributorsEdit

Writers for the newspaper include Michael Collins Piper, whose work has been characterized as anti-semitic,[3] and James P. Tucker, Jr., a longtime Spotlight reporter whose focus is the Bilderberg Group. Articles by Carto also appear occasionally. James Edwards, who now hosts The Political Cesspool (broadcast as a service of the neo-Nazi Stormfront) was also a former writer for the newspaper.

The newspaper also runs columns by Joe Sobran, James Traficant, Paul Craig Roberts,Ron Paul, and others. The newspaper'spodcast series has featured mainstream guests including Brian Baird, Philip Giraldi,Dean Baker, and others.[4]

Attendees of the 2006 American Free Press / The Barnes Review conference included [5]Arthur Jones, former member Nationalist Socialist White People's Party [6] and USS Liberty investigator Tito Howard. Dr. Hesham Tillawi whose show has been called "a megaphone for Holocaust deniers and white supremacists seeking to broadcast their hatred and anti-Semitism into American homes"[by whom?] also was a speaker.

Some authors of the American Free Press such as Michael Collins Piper and Carto-affiliated institutions such as the Institute for Historical Review have published books which have been published in paper and electronic format on the America First Books website America First Books.[7][8] William B. Fox is the publisher. It promotes nationalist viewpoints similar to those of the American Free Press and its authors. On its website it is explained why "supporting nationalism, to include even certain forms of 'white nationalism' makes good long term business sense"

CriticsEdit

The Southern Poverty Law Center considers it a hate group[9] and claims that it "carries stories on Zionism, secret 'New World Order' conspiracies, American Jews and Israel."[10]One of the newspaper's ex-contract reporters,Christopher Bollyn, is sometimes cited for his reporting in the 9/11 Truth Movement. TheAnti-Defamation League has criticised the newspaper and, in particular, Bollyn for linking of prominent figures in the Jewish community with the events of September 11, 2001, and in September 2006 attacked the newspaper for disseminating "antisemitic propaganda".[11]

Many contributors such as Mark Dankof[12]and Mark Glenn are also contributors to Iran'sPressTV television station. According toAccuracy in Media, "Press TV spews out unending streams of anti-American propaganda", and refers to Dankof as a Ron Paul supporter who is also a "Press TV propagandist".[citation needed] In a May 2011 article Dankof protested the British government attempting to shut down Press TV, blaming it on "media outlets and correspondents with provable connections to the American Jewish lobby; Israeli intelligence; and Neo-Conservatives thirsting for a War of Civilizations with Iran specifically, and the Islamic world generally.”[13] In a May 2011 article, Dankof also quoted from and wrote that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion accurately reflect the state of the world. He lauded PressTV as one of the few exceptions to the Jewish control of the media.[14]

[aygart]

As I always repeat:  This isn't about any specific ethnic / religious group.  If the Yakuza, Cosa Nostra, La Eme, etc had been acting like the Vaad, it would be just as bad.  Political power corrupts all!  Also don't mistake this as anti-natalist criticism: I am very pro-natalist!  Having lots of kids is a very good thing - if you can pull your economic weight!

You are right about that, so why do you keep bringing it up. No accusations of corruption give you any rights to the land which you still have not established. You keep changing the topic each time I mention this. You stole land and it its corruption to remove you from the land you stole?

[Alex Libman]

You are losing any credibility you had  [...]

Great, here come the Al Sharpton ADL tactics again...

Nothing more than name-calling...  Remember that argumentation validity pyramid a few pages back?

Supporting political corruption in Lakewood is a choice.  It has nothing to do with being against Semitic people.  Remember Hershel Herskowitz?

That Wikipedia entry seems to be hijacked and greatly unbalanced.  Hope that changes in the near future (which is why I've linked to it - I've mainly pasted that article quote on a number of libertarian / Ron Paul supporter forums)...  The Wikipedia entry highlights a small fraction of AFP writers that are the most controversial, and uses accusation of "conspiracy theory" as a thought-terminating cliché.  I've been familiar with the AFP since about the time I became a Ron Paul supporter in 2006, and I find that their actual content doesn't come anywhere close to the libel some groups put out about them.

"OMG, they don't want so much taxpayer money going to Israel, that makes them Hitler!!!"   

Do you have any logical, factual criticism of the article - especially the part I quoted, and especially the parts in bold?  Didn't think so.

You are right about that, so why do you keep bringing it up. No accusations of corruption give you any rights to the land which you still have not established. You keep changing the topic each time I mention this. You stole land and it its corruption to remove you from the land you stole?

You are committing what is probably the most common logical fallacy in existence - misattributing burden of proof - "I am king, I make the law, prove yourself in my court".  No.  You must first prove the validity of your power.  If you repeat the rotting conjecture of your power being necessary and good, my arguments are ready to debunk it.  Read the justifications for the American Revolution.

Without the first argument it means that you stole land and are saying that the cheapest way for them to take care of the issue you made is for them to let you steal it.

You are trying to twist things.  Hypothetically, without the first (moral) argument that this is our land by Right to Homestead, we would have the claim that this is "public land", and all the problems and ambiguities and "tragedy of the commons".  The second [pragmatic] argument is that the government should let homeless people camp in a well-organized remote plot of "public land", because it's better for everybody, including the taxpayers.

Those who support Tent City based upon the pragmatic argument are basing on the premise that it is the government's resposibility to do something for you and will then look for the most cost effective way to do it. Based upon what you have written you should reject that premise.Since when do you believe that government should do anything to take care of the poor?

As I've stated, I am a gradualist libertarian.  I don't believe the evils of government can disappear overnight, and the transition needs to be properly managed.  I'm not claiming that the government has a responsibility to take care of the poor, but that the government justified its existence in part for altruistic ends, but in reality also ended up hurting the poor (artificial scarcity in housing and medicine raising the cost of living, bad business climate chasing away jobs, resentment sabotaging voluntary charity, etc, etc, etc, etc).

The government assets should all gradually be privatized, starting with the most uncomplicated remote plots of land, and eventually someday even roads, courts, police, etc.  But who says that "privatized" must only mean selling to the highest bidder?  Functions of the government need to be replaced by the free market, which must include non-profits and charities as well.  We deserve this land because we accomplish what the government promised and failed, and also as restitution for the harms that government has caused.

With Tent City shutting down I saw that a church is opening its basement to the homeless. Don't you feel that this PRIVATE ENTERPRISE solution is the best one?

Yes, of course.  They have their idea, and we have ours; and we will compete for supporter patronage.  I have multiple reasons to prefer our solution over theirs (and not just because I don't have a basement).

Ocean County would need a hundred such basements to house all the homeless - assuming they would all want to go there, which I very much doubt.  I've heard many things about how this program will be implemented - these approaches didn't work before, and there's no reason they will work again.  Yet another prohibitionist part-time prison that gets locked at night - a recipe for failure.  Difficult people need their space.  It may work for some small fraction of the homeless, but it doesn't take away the need for Tent Cities as part of the solution.

It may seem like a step in the right direction, but it also has side-effects that may be negative. Providing temporary shelter for 9 or 15 people will get a lot of positive publicity, and a lot of media and politicians will put a "mission accomplished" sign over it.  And it is unknown how long this shelter will last...

Small shelters that cherry-pick the people who are easiest to help are only hurting the more viable solution. You are depriving Tent Cities of positive and hard-working people who would help make them work, which means fewer good people to counter-balance the "bad apples" and keep them from dominating...

Your pragmatic argument is in direct contradiction of your libertarian ones.

Not even close.

The opposition to it is more grassroots than based upon those with political influence.

This statement is very easy to disprove.  Tent City support is as grass-roots as it gets: lots and lots of small donations, hundreds of people stopping by once in a while to drop off some food or clothing.  All of this is very well documented.  State-wide opinion polls support us as well.  Opposition to Tent City is highly organized, and virtually all of it is coming from one centralized organization.  Not all Orthodox (we've had Orthodox people supporting us at rallies, etc), but those loyal to the political cause.  People who live closest to Tent City (ex. the low-end apartments at 419 Cedar Bridge Ave) aren't bothered by the smoke, but people under the influence of the Vaad could probably smell it all the way from Jerusalem...

Apparently enough people consider it to be close enough to their backyard to bother them.

This does not in any way invalidate my argument.  You don't get to dictate by local popular opinion who gets bulldozed.  That's what happened in Nazi Germany you know.  We are outside your property.  The closest you come to a rational argument of us harming anyone is the smoke, which is a very weak issue, and it probably wouldn't have been an issue at all if the government hadn't made us switch from propane heaters several years back...

My impression is that a large portion of supporters are from out of Lakewood (may be wrong about that).

True.  Our Facebook Page likes come from all over, focusing on the nearby area - Toms River 499 likes, Brick 214, Lakewood 208, Jackson 203, Howell 163, Bayville 102, NYC 101, Point Pleasant 82, Forked River 63, Philadelphia 59, Manchester 50, Neptune 50, etc, etc, etc.

In TC likes per 1000 people: Toms River has 5.41, Jackson 3.65, Howell 3.19, Brick 2.82, and Lakewood only 2.24.  (Of course if you take out the Vaad-influenced population and non-English-speaking population, the level of support in Lakewood would probably be similar to Toms River.)

So what?

There's only one semi-organized Tent City in the area - at one point it was the largest in North Eastern USA, all due to the hard work and other merits of Rev Steve Brigham.  There should be a Tent City in every major municipality where there is a need, and then things would even out, but some would still attract more patronage than others.  Some towns may need multiple Tent Cities, and some none at all.  The free market should decide...

When a person in Lakewood wants to go to Walmart, or to the beach, or to a movie theater, or a decent gym (etc, etc, etc), he has to leave town.  When a person in Toms River wants to help out at a well-organized homeless camp, he has to leave town too.  Lakewood doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[aygart]

Great, here come the Al Sharpton ADL tactics again...

Nothing more than name-calling...  Remember that argumentation validity pyramid a few pages back?


Do you have any logical, factual criticism of the article - especially the part I quoted, and especially the parts in bold?  Didn't think so........

 Not all Orthodox (we've had Orthodox people supporting us at rallies, etc), but those loyal to the political cause.  People who live closest to Tent City (ex. the low-end apartments at 419 Cedar Bridge Ave) aren't bothered by the smoke, but people under the influence of the Vaad could probably smell it all the way from Jerusalem...

An article accusing Jews of a "Final Solution"? All the article does is make vague accusations that it is all the fault of those corrupt dirty Jews. What is there to refute?

BTW, I feel that you are the one who is making no real argument other than similar vague accusations that anyone who claims to be bothered is only doing so due to the corrupt influence of the Vaad. Where does that fit into your pyramid?

You are right about that, so why do you keep bringing it up. No accusations of corruption give you any rights to the land which you still have not established. You keep changing the topic each time I mention this. You stole land and it its corruption to remove you from the land you stole?

You are committing what is probably the most common logical fallacy in existence - misattributing burden of proof - "I am king, I make the law, prove yourself in my court".  No.  You must first prove the validity of your power.  If you repeat the rotting conjecture of your power being necessary and good, my arguments are ready to debunk it.  Read the justifications for the American Revolution.

You are claiming an ownership right to the land. The only coherent argument you have made is that those who wish to remove you are corrupt. Other than that you have made vague references to homesteading which is dependent on the land being ownerless. I and many others do not accept your premise that it is ownerless just on your say so. If you make the claim then back it up. Don't just say that I have no right to ask about your claim because you and some anti-semite decided that the whole thing is based on corruption. So instead of just babbling and claiming you have some article ready to debunk, state your argument and leave out the irrelevant accusations of corruption. And so I repeat,

No accusations of corruption give you any rights to the land which you still have not established. You keep (still) changing the topic each time I mention this. You stole land and it its corruption to remove you from the land you stole?

You have complained previously that everyone was writing nothing but attacks while not discussing the logic behind the issue. I have been attempting to discuss the issue with you by asking some simple questions for you to explain your stand. So far you have not been able to do so. I have basically been asking you to simply explain why and how you have the ownership you claim to have. I have been asking this over and over again. If the most you are able to do is say that the burden of proof is not on you then we are not getting to first base. This is not a court where such discussions are relevant. It seems that you are trying to justify Tent City in the eyes of the members of this forum. The admins are giving you the opportunity to do so. To just say that you don't need to answer will not do so.  You are abdicating your entire purpose and wasting your time. If you want to convince anyone that you are right then you need to state your arguments and explain yourself. When a contradiction is pointed out to say "not even close" is meaningless. If you plan on stating your arguments then do so, otherwise they are hte same anti-semitic rants claiming that all the worlds evils are the fault of the Jews.