Poll

A Poll to decide if a poll should be taken.

Yes, we should take a poll to see people's opinion on TC.
8 (16.3%)
No, we should not take a poll to see people's opinion on TC.
7 (14.3%)
I never vote in polls.
5 (10.2%)
Maybe we should first take a poll to determine if this poll should be taken.
29 (59.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Tent City Lakewood  (Read 67334 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2013, 08:43:46 PM »
Seriously, you staying for the winter?!

Offline AnonymousUser

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2013, 08:45:14 PM »
NJ is a big state. Why can't you guys go park somewhere else further away from established developed areas?

Offline Alex Libman

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 08:50:58 PM »
TC DO :D

Hi Dan.  Love your site.  Thank you very much for hosting this discussion.   :)

I'm sorry, what's "DO"?


why don't you get a real job and a warm home?

Why didn't Rosa Parks just sit in the back of the bus?


And I go unanswered? :(

I'm sorry, did I miss something?


Seriously, you staying for the winter?!

If the police don't arrest me, yes.

And I don't have a heater in my tent, because there aren't enough to go around...


NJ is a big state. Why can't you guys go park somewhere else further away from established developed areas?

Most Tent City residents work, at least part-time.  Tent City is ideally located within walking distance of Lakewood Industrial Park, the bus terminal, the library, etc.

Plus most residents are from this area.  My mother lived in Lakewood since 1998.  I've lived nearby (20-50 minute driving distance) since 1992.  It's the closest thing I have to a hometown...

Homeless people have been living on this land for 7+ years.  The Township should just let us build a proper homeless shelter here - all we need is land...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 08:55:49 PM by Alex Libman »

Offline EJB

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2013, 08:55:55 PM »
Quote
I personally decline to accept taxpayer money (whenever it can be avoided) because it is against my principles.

Well aren't you a tzaddik. If, God forbid, a fire spreads in your camp, would you turn the fire department away? If robbers come to steal all of your belongings, would you turn the policy department away? Even if you do not take cash from the government, you still benefit from taxpayer money.

Alex, you may not agree with the laws in this country. But if you disobey the laws, accept that there might be consequences to your actions. Now, you may believe that the laws are unjust (or "unconstitutional." Take that up with the Supreme Court) . You may believe that the laws are not in society's best interests. But there are ways to make your voices heard that do not involve breaking the law.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 08:59:10 PM by EJB »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2013, 09:00:17 PM »


Homeless people have been living on this land for 7+ years.  The Township should just let us build a proper homeless shelter here - all we need is land...
you do realize that this land is owned by taxpayers and is a prime real estate location. It could be sold for many millions that would reduce my tax bill. You are asking for my tax money??

Offline EJB

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2013, 09:04:23 PM »
you do realize that this land is owned by taxpayers and is a prime real estate location. It could be sold for many millions that would reduce my tax bill. You are asking for my tax money??

And he'd be happy to sell it to you for millions :)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2013, 09:04:28 PM »
Do you ever shower?

Offline EJB

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2013, 09:05:24 PM »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2013, 09:06:14 PM »

Offline Alex Libman

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2013, 10:10:58 PM »
Well aren't you a tzaddik.

Thank you for the compliment, but I still have a long long way to go.  ;D


If, God forbid, a fire spreads in your camp, would you turn the fire department away? If robbers come to steal all of your belongings, would you turn the policy department away? Even if you do not take cash from the government, you still benefit from taxpayer money.

For everyone's safety, I would call the existing government monopolies and cooperate with them.  I don't impose my views on others.

I carefully said that I avoid taxpayer money "whenever it can be avoided".  There's a big moral difference between using the roads / fire protection / police / etc monopoly and accepting a free apartment at taxpayer expense.  (And I've paid my share of taxes in my life, and I still do - it's pretty hard to buy anything without a large fraction of its price going to the government.)

I will spare you a lecture on theoretical free market alternatives to such monopolies - which are the least bad of the government monopolies to have.  You do not make an effective argument against libertarian philosophy (does slaves eating their master's food justify slavery?), but that's not what this thread is about.

This thread is about Tent City, under the circumstances, being a good thing.  Tent City picks up where government has failed.  The government hates Tent City, spreads lies about it, and sabotages it precisely because Tent City is exposing how corrupt, inefficient, and unnecessary the Welfare State truly is!


Alex, you may not agree with the laws in this country. But if you disobey the laws, accept that there might be consequences to your actions. Now, you may believe that the laws are unjust (or "unconstitutional." Take that up with the Supreme Court) . You may believe that the laws are not in society's best interests. But there are ways to make your voices heard that do not involve breaking the law.

Being homeless is now a crime.  The government fails to provide for the homeless, in spite of stealing ("taxing") huge amounts of money in the name of the poor.  It steals vast amounts of land from the marketplace, supposedly in the name of the "public".  Rich people can afford their own country clubs, etc - they don't benefit from this - it is all excused in the name of the poor.  This, combined with other regulations (ex. zoning) that contribute to artificial scarcity, and of course property taxes, multiplies the cost of basic housing for the poor.  The government hurts the poor in the name of helping the poor!  The Welfare State is a racket - and you're paying for it!

Of course I expect there to be consequences to going up against such government power.  I am more concerned in whether I am right.  Bad laws need to be confronted and challenged.  Civil disobedience is crucial to bringing about positive change.


you do realize that this land is owned by taxpayers and is a prime real estate location. It could be sold for many millions that would reduce my tax bill. You are asking for my tax money??

Everyone is a taxpayer.  "Public property" is an oxymoron.  Tragedy of the commons.  Etc.

You should read up on the philosophy of Property Rights, and a little something called the Homestead Principle.

Our claim to this land is that we "mixed our labor" with it for 7+ years and built Tent City, helped hundreds of people, reduced the impact of poverty on the surrounding community, and saved the taxpayers a whole lot of money.  The Township's claim to it is that they stole it fair and square from someone who didn't pay them enough taxes, in the name of the "public", and then left it unused for many decades...

The land could be sold only once.  In the meantime, Tent City is saving the taxpayers about $2,000,000 a year - with its current population (and only counting housing costs, and not all the other things and overhead).  If they give us the land under contract, it could save as much as $6,000,000 a year.  (While keeping the land wooded - or do you want to rename the municipality to just Lake Township?)


Do you ever shower?

Yes, Tent City has a shower, via a groundwater well with a pump that is powered by the electrical generator.  There's a proper shower and a sink in a tiled wooden structure, with hot water via a propane heater, and the whole structure is also heated with a stove in the winter.  We really have a very impressive setup, when you consider how little it costs.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 10:17:09 PM by Alex Libman »

Offline ayman

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2013, 10:19:20 PM »
It would seem that alot of ppl here who would vote republican in any election and scream all day about big govt should be agreeing w Mr. Alex's views. The big prob that comes across from the ppl bashing him is you just don't like the idea of homeless ppl congregating near you.

Just my .02 as a NYC resident and not familiar w this tent city.
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Offline EJB

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2013, 10:27:35 PM »
You should read up on the philosophy of Property Rights, and a little something called the Homestead Principle.

Our claim to this land is that we "mixed our labor" with it for 7+ years and built Tent City, helped hundreds of people, reduced the impact of poverty on the surrounding community, and saved the taxpayers a whole lot of money.  The Township's claim to it is that they stole it fair and square from someone who didn't pay them enough taxes, in the name of the "public", and then left it unused for many decades...


The law is not vague. Acquire the land and its yours. If you don't acquire for the land, you can cure cancer, create world peace, save Lakewood "millions," or quote however many philosophies that our law isn't based on. You still need to get the land legally. You have not been continuously on the land 60 years, so you do not have a legal claim to the land.
http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/2a-administration-of-civil-and-criminal-justice/14-30.html
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 10:59:04 PM by EJB »

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2013, 10:33:20 PM »
It would seem that alot of ppl here who would vote republican in any election and scream all day about big govt should be agreeing w Mr. Alex's views. The big prob that comes across from the ppl bashing him is you just don't like the idea of homeless ppl congregating near you.

Just my .02 as a NYC resident and not familiar w this tent city.
this is not a republican/big government issue at all.
Alex is an extreme libertarian.
The homeless don't know better. Lakewood taxpayer are being taken advantage of.
You obviously are not up to speed on this issue.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »
A real libertarian doesn't make a lifestyle out of charity.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 10:41:24 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2013, 10:38:43 PM »
There was a TV show, Destination Unknown that came to visit Tent City. As a Lakewood resident, I was able to see through the constant lies that the residents constantly spat out on the show, trying to gain our sympathy.

For example, the show was centered around finding certain residents a job.  "Any job" is good enough, they said. Some of them were experienced construction workers. They concluded the show saying "there really is no job for us, no one has any work around here".

Are you guys absolutely INSANE?!
NO CONSTRUCTION JOBS IN LAKEWOOD????

This city is UNRECOGNIZABLE one month to the next due to new construction, and you guys have the guts to flat out lie about not finding any available construction jobs?

Cry me a river.
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Offline notanonymous

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2013, 10:45:54 PM »
A real libertarian doesn't make a lifestyle out of charity.

Offline notanonymous

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2013, 10:47:02 PM »
A real libertarian doesn't make a lifestyle out of charity.
+1
Although a liberal libertarian does.
There is nothing wrong with being a libertarian.   I would guess most of the people on this forum want smaller government (I don't need Mrs. Obama telling me what to feed our kids).  But the poster here shares more values with the left, than with libertarianism.   I think even Ron Paul would say this is meshugga.  I can't print what Neal Boortz would say.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2013, 10:47:46 PM »
A real libertarian doesn't make a lifestyle out of charity.
Its a lifestyle out of being a libertarian, using the homeless as a prop.

Offline Alex Libman

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2013, 11:06:10 PM »
It would seem that alot of ppl here who would vote republican in any election and scream all day about big govt should be agreeing w Mr. Alex's views.

True.

And people who claim to be "bleeding-heart liberals" should be agreeing with me too, as it isn't humane to bulldoze a shantytown off "public land" and make those people homeless again.

Tent City is just a good idea for everybody.  People just gotta realize that we didn't create the problem of homelessness (and the various problems that homeless people sometimes have) - we're just trying to solve it.


The big prob that comes across from the ppl bashing him is you just don't like the idea of homeless ppl congregating near you.

As I wrote in on the bottom of reply #19, there are 12,000 to 20,000+ homeless people in New Jersey.  If they were distributed homogeneously, then Lakewood's natural homeless population would be 214, but there are very good reasons why Lakewood should expect to have more homeless than other towns: availability of low-paying jobs in the Industrial Park, fast population growth raising housing costs, etc.  Our Tent City's peak population was 122.

Tent City didn't bring homeless to Lakewood, it just made some homeless people who fell through the cracks a lot less miserable.

Of course nobody wants poor neighbors who live in shanties, but it's better than having more homeless people living in the streets.  It's still a nice wooded area.  Living next to some "public" woodland has up-sides and down-sides that people should have known in advance.

The law is not vague. Pay for the land and its yours. If you don't pay for the land, you can cure cancer, create world peace, save Lakewood "millions," or quote however many philosophies that our law isn't based on. You still need to get the land legally. You have not been continuously on the land 60 years, so you do not have a legal claim to the land.
http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/2a-administration-of-civil-and-criminal-justice/14-30.html

Very well said.

That would be true of Private Property.  "Public property", on the other hand, is an oxymoron, no matter how many laws they write.  The principle of Private Property is backed by pure reason.  "Public property" is backed by nothing except force.


A real libertarian doesn't make a lifestyle out of charity.

And why not?

Socialists / tyrants always say, "what about the poor"?...  Tent City is living proof that government does a lot more harm than good by artificially raising the cost of living, chasing away jobs, creating resentment, and discouraging voluntary charity!

Tent City is the voluntaryist alternative to the coercive, corrupt, inefficient, immoral, tyranny-empowering racket of the Welfare State!


There was a TV show, Destination Unknown that came to visit Tent City.

Yup...



(See 120+ more Tent City videos on YouTube and Vimeo.)


[...]  NO CONSTRUCTION JOBS IN LAKEWOOD????  [...]

I agree with you.  Most unemployed people are lazy, and almost all exaggerate the difficulty of finding a job.

Of course simply finding a job isn't enough - you have to find a REGULAR, FULL-TIME / OVERTIME job and keep it.  Some people, about 1 in 400, fail to do that, and, having no other alternatives, become homeless.

I am not excusing them.  I am saying that Tent City is better than the alternatives - taxpayer-funded apartments, concentration camps, or living under bridges...


---


Now, if you'll excuse me - I am working 15 hour days and sleeping in a cold tent.  I will catch up with the rest later.

Offline EJB

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Re: Tent City Lakewood
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2013, 11:36:35 PM »

Very well said.

That would be true of Private Property.  "Public property", on the other hand, is an oxymoron, no matter how many laws they write.  The principle of Private Property is backed by pure reason.  "Public property" is backed by nothing except force.


You're right. There's no such thing as squatting land owned by the government :)

You're free to disagree with the philosophy behind the law of our land. But as you said:
Quote
I don't impose my views on others

Don't. And don't make a pseudo-legal claim to the land as you do below:
Quote
Our claim to this land is that we "mixed our labor" with it for 7+ years and built Tent City, helped hundreds of people, reduced the impact of poverty on the surrounding community, and saved the taxpayers a whole lot of money.



Quote
As I wrote in on the bottom of reply #19, there are 12,000 to 20,000+ homeless people in New Jersey.  If they were distributed homogeneously, then Lakewood's natural homeless population would be 214, but there are very good reasons why Lakewood should expect to have more homeless than other towns: availability of low-paying jobs in the Industrial Park, fast population growth raising housing costs, etc.  Our Tent City's peak population was 122.

There are many things wrong with this argument, but if you use the figures published by the census and NJ Cooperation for Supportive Housing numbers, you get a projection of around 130.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 11:45:38 PM by EJB »