another get story..

[ybeeds]

EXACTLY!
If he does that, then he's giving the get "al t'nai"!

sooo... halacha says get can only be given without a t'nai...

I think you are misunderstanding how a "Get al Tnai" works...

A "Get al Tnai" means there is a binding condition within the Get. In other words, if someone gives a Get on condition that the woman will never set foot in her father's house, then if she transgresses this condition, the Get will become batul/nullified from the time it originally given, then her children from her 2nd marriage will be considered mamzerim (since she was still married to her first husband when she had these children with a different man).

In this case he is asking to settle all arguments prior to giving the Get (as the Shulchan Aruch says one should do), and is asking for a separate binding agreement in regards to custody/visitation (not binding to the Get), in case she tries playing with his rights - a common practice done by many divorced woman; obviously once they receive their Get - he will have something to hold her to in Bais Din or Court.

[skyguy918]

I think you are misunderstanding how a "Get al Tnai" works...

A "Get al Tnai" means there is a binding condition within the Get. In other words, if someone gives a Get on condition that the woman will never set foot in her father's house, then if she transgresses this condition, the Get will become batul/nullified from the time it originally given, then her children from her 2nd marriage will be considered mamzerim (since she was still married to her first husband when she had these children with a different man).

In this case he is asking to settle all arguments prior to giving the Get (as the Shulchan Aruch says one should do), and is asking for a separate binding agreement in regards to custody/visitation (not binding to the Get), in case she tries playing with his rights - a common practice done by many divorced woman; obviously once they receive their Get - he will have something to hold her to in Bais Din or Court.

I already mentioned all of this, not sure what bigdanfan doesn't understand about it.

[henche]

Link to the Halacha?

I don't think the Shulchan Aruch's website is up and running yet..

Hebrewbooks.org is up and running. there are easy links to the gemara, and you can find any chelek in shulchan aruch there

[skyguy918]

Hebrewbooks.org is up and running. there are easy links to the gemara, and you can find any chelek in shulchan aruch there

Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.

[PlatinumGuy]

Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.

I think it's a mishanah and everyone agrees on it. But that's only if it's not מעכשו.

[Hirshthg]

Clearly an effort to "keep the procedures within the rabbinics" and out of public eye...
It's been 4 years, and that hasn't gone well --

The couple has are already been civilly divorced for 2 years.
For the rabbis to tell the public to be quiet after it's been 4 years just goes to show that they have no handle on it,
it's not a halachic prohibition to request public support -- perhaps they just want to avoid outside pressure.

I don't think you understood my point at all. The worms are all out of the can and this is the next Rubashkin. If you start a sentence "The rabbis" you are indicating that you have no scope as to how vast the spectrum of "Rabbis" is.

[BigDanFan]

I don't think you understood my point at all. The worms are all out of the can and this is the next Rubashkin. If you start a sentence "The rabbis" you are indicating that you have no scope as to how vast the spectrum of "Rabbis" is.

fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,
and from experience seeing the molestors, the thieves, that get away with stuff...
often some rabbis are looking at other unrelated factors in their decision making
(such as what will publicly reflect on them, and what public response by outsiders may happen down the road -
leaving Kollel/getting a job/the Truth coming out)
more than what is best for the specific, actual people involved - Father, Mother, Child.

Regarding the get, you are right, על תנאי, in Halacha is apparently the connection to the terms of the get itself, not the  תנאי of the action of giving of it...

(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...

[churnbabychurn]

fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,
and from experience seeing the molestors, the thieves, that get away with stuff...
often some rabbis are looking at other unrelated factors in their decision making
(such as what will publicly reflect on them, and what public response by outsiders may happen down the road -
leaving Kollel/getting a job/the Truth coming out)
more than what is best for the specific, actual people involved - Father, Mother, Child.

Regarding the get, you are right, על תנאי, in Halacha is apparently the connection to the terms of the get itself, not the  תנאי of the action of giving of it...

(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...

Enough of blaming the "rabbis" for all of the world problems.
Disgusting.

[Hirshthg]

fully aware -- the vast scope of the "rabbis" spectrum is huge....
it's big, it's deep, old, and sometimes dirty or dishonest.

these particular rabbis may be a narrower segment of the huge spectrum,

That's enough. You address the Rabbis like it's one for all and all for one.
Rabbis like any other group of people are made up of humans, and some of them are more human than other. When I address the motives of a particular rabbi or group of people you respond with a comment about "the rebbis". WT*?

I am insulted. I agree with you that that there are people who stand behind "stuff" to shield them from the things they do, and that it doesn't help. How does that allow you to paint with a broad brush and incriminate every Jew?

Please refrain from your anti Semitic rhetoric, thank you,
a rabbi

[CountValentine]

Please refrain from your anti Semitic rhetoric, thank you,

I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?

[SuperFlyer]

I'm not sure why I need to write it over again.
I say this with sadness, however, I will have to mention this again.
Unfortunately, it's very often true....

Start reading from line 2 (text is easy).

[Menachem613]

I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?

+1

[shmuelb]

I was with you 100% until this statement. Why are those who speak up for those that can't are labeled anti something or other?

He does not mean antisemite in the classic usage.

The point is that this stan-fan is spouting hatred for Rabbis, tarring them (if not all then a significant portion) as being selfish, cunning and uncaring. This is beyond ridiculous. Rabbis are very selfless, dedicated and caring people, their whole lives are given to help others. They are not in it for the money. Their lives are working on their character to become better people. They are wonderful people. They do not deserve to be slandered as has been done by "anti-semites" throughout the ages.

[henche]

(So, the consensus seems to be that her "currency" is she's the mother and wants her child
and his "currency" is he's the father and will only give the 'get' when his conditions are met.)

Here, her power tool is that she's the child's mother,
and his power tool is that he can hold onto the get as long as his conditions are met --
but the rabbis I spoke to said that the get is not supposed to be a power tool
Some would say it's Fair and some say it's Imbalanced...
i don't know additional details in this case - so that's it - Hope it ends soon...

Those rabbis--who said the get is not supposed to be a power tool--they said the mother IS supposed to use the kids as a power tool?

[henche]

Are you asking about המגרש על תנאי in general or bigdanfan's application of it? The halachos of המגרש על תנאי are in אבן העזר סימן קמג (wikisource hebrew). The שולחן ערוך holds that a גט על תנאי has no effect when it is given, but once the תנאי is fulfilled, הרי זו מגורשת. Therefore, as I mentioned already, it has no bearing on this case.

Except as PG pointed out that if say mei'achshav then she is divorced right away and she can even remarry l'chatchila if the tnai is b'yadah.

[CountValentine]

He does not mean antisemite in the classic usage.

The point is that this stan-fan is spouting hatred for Rabbis, tarring them (if not all then a significant portion) as being selfish, cunning and uncaring. This is beyond ridiculous. Rabbis are very selfless, dedicated and caring people, their whole lives are given to help others. They are not in it for the money. Their lives are working on their character to become better people. They are wonderful people. They do not deserve to be slandered as has been done by "anti-semites" throughout the ages.

I understand his and your point. Unfortunately no matter how respected/trusted a group is there will always be a few bad apples. You need to speak up for the ones who can’t speak for themselves when this trust has been violated. Now back to regular schedule program that make American divorces look like child’s play. 

[skyguy918]

I think it's a mishanah and everyone agrees on it. But that's only if it's not מעכשו.

I said שולחן ערוך because that's what I was quoting, not because it's a מחלוקת.

Except as PG pointed out that if say mei'achshav then she is divorced right away and she can even remarry l'chatchila if the tnai is b'yadah.

I'm not 100% sure about this part, so don't quote me on it, but I believe the answer to your question lies in the last line of סעיף ב:
וי”א דאפילו בתנאי דמעכשיו יכול לבטלו ויש להחמיר
Because a בתנאי such as visitation rights is never really completed (she has to continually allow him visitation on whatever schedule indefinitely), if you say the husband can be מבטל a גט דמעכשיו until the תנאי is fulfilled then the wife would never be allowed to remarry with that גט because the husband still has the power to be מבטל it.

[henche]

I said שולחן ערוך because that's what I was quoting, not because it's a מחלוקת.I'm not 100% sure about this part, so don't quote me on it, but I believe the answer to your question lies in the last line of סעיף ב:
וי”א דאפילו בתנאי דמעכשיו יכול לבטלו ויש להחמיר
Because a בתנאי such as visitation rights is never really completed (she has to continually allow him visitation on whatever schedule indefinitely), if you say the husband can be מבטל a גט דמעכשיו until the תנאי is fulfilled then the wife would never be allowed to remarry with that גט because the husband still has the power to be מבטל it.

Ah, so we need to read the nosei keilim. But I'm busy today. Toodeloo.

[churnbabychurn]

Guys please, "kol sheino yodeai betiv gittin vekidushin al yehi lo esek imohem"
I highly doubt anyone here has studied Even Haezer aliba dehilchasa. To regurgitate a few gemaras that we remember from 10th grade gittin is nice but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

[aygart]

Guys please, "kol sheino yodeai betiv gittin vekidushin al yehi lo esek imohem"
I highly doubt anyone here has studied Even Haezer aliba dehilchasa. To regurgitate a few gemaras that we remember from 10th grade gittin is nice but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

+1000000000000 not just on the last part, but the whole thread!