Author Topic: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"  (Read 89078 times)

Offline yehuda S

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #240 on: November 15, 2013, 12:53:29 PM »
It's not his to make- it's her hair!

It's like abortion rights ;)
Her body, her choice
Yeah - this is utterly ridiculous.
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Offline wayfe

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #241 on: November 15, 2013, 12:55:50 PM »
In my religion, the minhagim are determined by the husband.

If he dislikes her chumro, she has to stop it.

She HAS to stop it?

The way it works with most civilized couples, is that they discuss it and come an agreement that works for both of them.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #242 on: November 15, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »
Not so- there are many things that are considered ervah by a woman and not man.
But the parts of a man that are Erva are just as strict as a woman's

Offline sky121

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #243 on: November 15, 2013, 12:59:24 PM »
She HAS to stop it?

The way it works with most civilized couples, is that they discuss it and come an agreement that works for both of them.

Sefardi mentality tends to be a bit old school like that IME. And while there isn't necessarily a problem with it it's that mentality that makes it too easy to cross the line and leads to trouble sometimes.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #244 on: November 15, 2013, 01:02:25 PM »
Sefardi mentality tends to be a bit old school like that IME. And while there isn't necessarily a problem with it it's that mentality that makes it too easy to cross the line and leads to trouble sometimes.
Yup, I think Yuneeq just outed himself.
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #245 on: November 15, 2013, 01:03:38 PM »
Yup, I think Yuneeq just outed himself.
I think I knew that for a while now...

Offline wayfe

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #246 on: November 15, 2013, 01:06:16 PM »
I think an important thing to emphasize is that chassidim are humans after all- and if they are flawed humans, the blame is on human personality not the entire religion
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #247 on: November 15, 2013, 01:09:01 PM »
I think an important thing to emphasize is that chassidim are humans after all- and if they are flawed humans, the blame is on human personality not the entire religion

So when is it appropriate to blame an entire religion?

Offline meshugener

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #248 on: November 15, 2013, 01:09:05 PM »
@ Satmar Lady  You say you know some people who grow their hair despite the Rebbe's insistence, and that you don't know of any punishment for those who don't live up to community standards.  How do respond to this girl's article, in which she describes how her son was kicked out of school, she and her husband were summoned before the vaad hatznius and threatened, and told they would be visited by a woman to inspect the length of her hair?
Because KJ is different than any other satmar community.
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Offline Satmar Guy

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #249 on: November 15, 2013, 01:10:34 PM »
I don't know to which communities the women i was talking about belong, besides that they are chassidish. I have no idea how they would go about it in Satmar, but this description just doesn't make sense to me, I can't see it happening. How did they even know she doesn't shave? My suspicion, based on similar cases, is this: the school didn't want to have her kids because they were intentionally showing disregard to the Satmar beliefs, and so they found a tangible excuse. The community's view is this: we don't force you to hold our beliefs, but if you want to send your kids to our institutions (and pay $150 monthly tuition!) you gotta do it our way.
I'm starting to think that you're not really Satmar, or you have no idea what goes on in KJ. This is a reality, I know first hand of women who got criticized by Mikva ladies about not cutting their hair, and then the Vaad mysteriously found out about it.

"If you want to send your kids to our institutions...." Is that a justification for invading in a persons most intimate private part of their life? it's not like they advertise it, or tell anyone, just that they found out that she goes out of town to the mikva, so they figured out the reason. Is that even justifiable humanely? torahdig?



Not to all these bogus reasons why you need to do it.
Zohar/Kabala: Just says that the hair and nails that grow בימי נדה have some scary little black demons attached to them, but according to this reason, just cutting off the amount that grew in those two weeks would be enough.

סחיטה: If they would really care about that they wouldn't make their men go to the mikva on shabbos morning, and if they did at least make shiurim to tell them how careful they should be about it. Heck, you make women shave their heads their entire lives for this, and you won't stress it to the men who have long beards?
Also, if that would be the real reason wouldn't you make the women shave their whole body?

חציצה: Same as above, nobody cares of you have long hair in other places on your body, so don't try selling to me that חציצה is that's bothering you.

Also, for thousands of years, without proper showers, shampoo, and plenty of water, women got by just fine without חציצות, but now when we have all these things, hygiene is like it's never been before, today you're really worried about it? do we really need to be holier than the imahos?

קמחית: First of all, she didn't shave, she just covered it so well that the walls of her house never saw her hair, so why force someone to shave based on that? Second, going with that logic we would have thousands of כוהנים גדולים today, where are they all? Third, the gemara tells us about it because she was an anomaly, not the norm, the wives of תנאים and אמוראים didn't do it, but you expect it today, why? Forth, I once heard in the name of a Rav, don't remember which, that if קמחית had 7 sons כוהנים גדולים in her lifetime, that means that 6 of her sons died in her lifetime, so why would she be punished in such a way? The answer is because she was מנוול herself before her husband.

No one knows where and when this minhag started, there's no documentation, תשובה, or anything pointing to a point when rabanim decided that women should start doing it. Rather it was started somewhere a few hundred years ago in eastern Europe, and there were a few factors that caused it, non of it were צניעות or anything, and didn't come from high up, rather from the peasants and primitive villages. There was the factor of it being a protection against rape that was prevalent in those days, to disgust the potential perpetrator. Then there was the factor of the belief in those days that knotted hair has some demonic power, and they got that from the goyishe neighbors, not from the zohar. But once the practice became wide spread then all these obscure reasons and justifications started popping up. But those were just that, justifications after the fact.

Offline meshugener

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #250 on: November 15, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »

Without wanting to be mean, if you are so into that community, they probably would not approve that you use the net.
Right, if one day you see meshugener stopped posting on DDF, don't think he went Jewda's way. He got caught by the tznius committee and had to stand trial in front of 7 bearded black-hat judges.
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Offline yehuda S

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #251 on: November 15, 2013, 01:17:07 PM »
I'm starting to think that you're not really Satmar, or you have no idea what goes on in KJ. This is a reality, I know first hand of women who got criticized by Mikva ladies about not cutting their hair, and then the Vaad mysteriously found out about it.

"If you want to send your kids to our institutions...." Is that a justification for invading in a persons most intimate private part of their life? it's not like they advertise it, or tell anyone, just that they found out that she goes out of town to the mikva, so they figured out the reason. Is that even justifiable humanely? torahdig?



Not to all these bogus reasons why you need to do it.
Zohar/Kabala: Just says that the hair and nails that grow בימי נדה have some scary little black demons attached to them, but according to this reason, just cutting off the amount that grew in those two weeks would be enough.

סחיטה: If they would really care about that they wouldn't make their men go to the mikva on shabbos morning, and if they did at least make shiurim to tell them how careful they should be about it. Heck, you make women shave their heads their entire lives for this, and you won't stress it to the men who have long beards?
Also, if that would be the real reason wouldn't you make the women shave their whole body?

חציצה: Same as above, nobody cares of you have long hair in other places on your body, so don't try selling to me that חציצה is that's bothering you.

Also, for thousands of years, without proper showers, shampoo, and plenty of water, women got by just fine without חציצות, but now when we have all these things, hygiene is like it's never been before, today you're really worried about it? do we really need to be holier than the imahos?

קמחית: First of all, she didn't shave, she just covered it so well that the walls of her house never saw her hair, so why force someone to shave based on that? Second, going with that logic we would have thousands of כוהנים גדולים today, where are they all? Third, the gemara tells us about it because she was an anomaly, not the norm, the wives of תנאים and אמוראים didn't do it, but you expect it today, why? Forth, I once heard in the name of a Rav, don't remember which, that if קמחית had 7 sons כוהנים גדולים in her lifetime, that means that 6 of her sons died in her lifetime, so why would she be punished in such a way? The answer is because she was מנוול herself before her husband.

No one knows where and when this minhag started, there's no documentation, תשובה, or anything pointing to a point when rabanim decided that women should start doing it. Rather it was started somewhere a few hundred years ago in eastern Europe, and there were a few factors that caused it, non of it were צניעות or anything, and didn't come from high up, rather from the peasants and primitive villages. There was the factor of it being a protection against rape that was prevalent in those days, to disgust the potential perpetrator. Then there was the factor of the belief in those days that knotted hair has some demonic power, and they got that from the goyishe neighbors, not from the zohar. But once the practice became wide spread then all these obscure reasons and justifications started popping up. But those were just that, justifications after the fact.
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #252 on: November 15, 2013, 01:18:09 PM »
Right, if one day you see meshugener stopped posting on DDF, don't think he went Jewda's way. He got caught by the tznius committee and had to stand trial in front of 7 bearded black-hat judges.
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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #253 on: November 15, 2013, 01:20:13 PM »
I'm starting to think that you're not really Satmar, or you have no idea what goes on in KJ. This is a reality, I know first hand of women who got criticized by Mikva ladies about not cutting their hair, and then the Vaad mysteriously found out about it.

"If you want to send your kids to our institutions...." Is that a justification for invading in a persons most intimate private part of their life? it's not like they advertise it, or tell anyone, just that they found out that she goes out of town to the mikva, so they figured out the reason. Is that even justifiable humanely? torahdig?



Not to all these bogus reasons why you need to do it.
Zohar/Kabala: Just says that the hair and nails that grow בימי נדה have some scary little black demons attached to them, but according to this reason, just cutting off the amount that grew in those two weeks would be enough.

סחיטה: If they would really care about that they wouldn't make their men go to the mikva on shabbos morning, and if they did at least make shiurim to tell them how careful they should be about it. Heck, you make women shave their heads their entire lives for this, and you won't stress it to the men who have long beards?
Also, if that would be the real reason wouldn't you make the women shave their whole body?

חציצה: Same as above, nobody cares of you have long hair in other places on your body, so don't try selling to me that חציצה is that's bothering you.

Also, for thousands of years, without proper showers, shampoo, and plenty of water, women got by just fine without חציצות, but now when we have all these things, hygiene is like it's never been before, today you're really worried about it? do we really need to be holier than the imahos?

קמחית: First of all, she didn't shave, she just covered it so well that the walls of her house never saw her hair, so why force someone to shave based on that? Second, going with that logic we would have thousands of כוהנים גדולים today, where are they all? Third, the gemara tells us about it because she was an anomaly, not the norm, the wives of תנאים and אמוראים didn't do it, but you expect it today, why? Forth, I once heard in the name of a Rav, don't remember which, that if קמחית had 7 sons כוהנים גדולים in her lifetime, that means that 6 of her sons died in her lifetime, so why would she be punished in such a way? The answer is because she was מנוול herself before her husband.

No one knows where and when this minhag started, there's no documentation, תשובה, or anything pointing to a point when rabanim decided that women should start doing it. Rather it was started somewhere a few hundred years ago in eastern Europe, and there were a few factors that caused it, non of it were צניעות or anything, and didn't come from high up, rather from the peasants and primitive villages. There was the factor of it being a protection against rape that was prevalent in those days, to disgust the potential perpetrator. Then there was the factor of the belief in those days that knotted hair has some demonic power, and they got that from the goyishe neighbors, not from the zohar. But once the practice became wide spread then all these obscure reasons and justifications started popping up. But those were just that, justifications after the fact.
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ובזכרוני שלפני כשלשים וחמש שנה אמר לי זקן אחד, כמדומה שמו ר' רפאל כהן ז"ל, שהיה רגיל בילדותו בבית הרה"ק מהר"ש ז"ל בנו של הגה"ק צמח צדק הנ"ל, וראה שהרבנית אשתו של מהר"ש ז"ל היה שער ראשה מגולח
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:33:17 PM by centro »

Offline Menachem613

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #254 on: November 15, 2013, 01:22:50 PM »
I'm starting to think that you're not really Satmar, or you have no idea what goes on in KJ. This is a reality, I know first hand of women who got criticized by Mikva ladies about not cutting their hair, and then the Vaad mysteriously found out about it.

"If you want to send your kids to our institutions...." Is that a justification for invading in a persons most intimate private part of their life? it's not like they advertise it, or tell anyone, just that they found out that she goes out of town to the mikva, so they figured out the reason. Is that even justifiable humanely? torahdig?



Not to all these bogus reasons why you need to do it.
Zohar/Kabala: Just says that the hair and nails that grow בימי נדה have some scary little black demons attached to them, but according to this reason, just cutting off the amount that grew in those two weeks would be enough.

סחיטה: If they would really care about that they wouldn't make their men go to the mikva on shabbos morning, and if they did at least make shiurim to tell them how careful they should be about it. Heck, you make women shave their heads their entire lives for this, and you won't stress it to the men who have long beards?
Also, if that would be the real reason wouldn't you make the women shave their whole body?

חציצה: Same as above, nobody cares of you have long hair in other places on your body, so don't try selling to me that חציצה is that's bothering you.

Also, for thousands of years, without proper showers, shampoo, and plenty of water, women got by just fine without חציצות, but now when we have all these things, hygiene is like it's never been before, today you're really worried about it? do we really need to be holier than the imahos?

קמחית: First of all, she didn't shave, she just covered it so well that the walls of her house never saw her hair, so why force someone to shave based on that? Second, going with that logic we would have thousands of כוהנים גדולים today, where are they all? Third, the gemara tells us about it because she was an anomaly, not the norm, the wives of תנאים and אמוראים didn't do it, but you expect it today, why? Forth, I once heard in the name of a Rav, don't remember which, that if קמחית had 7 sons כוהנים גדולים in her lifetime, that means that 6 of her sons died in her lifetime, so why would she be punished in such a way? The answer is because she was מנוול herself before her husband.

No one knows where and when this minhag started, there's no documentation, תשובה, or anything pointing to a point when rabanim decided that women should start doing it. Rather it was started somewhere a few hundred years ago in eastern Europe, and there were a few factors that caused it, non of it were צניעות or anything, and didn't come from high up, rather from the peasants and primitive villages. There was the factor of it being a protection against rape that was prevalent in those days, to disgust the potential perpetrator. Then there was the factor of the belief in those days that knotted hair has some demonic power, and they got that from the goyishe neighbors, not from the zohar. But once the practice became wide spread then all these obscure reasons and justifications started popping up. But those were just that, justifications after the fact.

You sir, are a breath of fresh air.

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #255 on: November 15, 2013, 01:28:35 PM »
There's nothing sefardi about what I said. A man sets the halachos of his home; that's the halacha. (Similarly, ever heard that a man can be meifer his wife's neder?) That doesn't mean they can not have a discussion about it. They can have the discussion, and if he still decides that she shouldn't cut her hair, she must listen to him.

I'm not saying that it's reasonable for a husband to decide to go against all his wife's chumras/minhagim. However, there are minhagim or chumros that impact the husband, and those are/should be the ones that in the end of the day, in the husband hands.

Unfortunately, the feminist doctrine seems to have seeped into a couple of posters hashkofas.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:32:47 PM by yuneeq »
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #256 on: November 15, 2013, 01:30:14 PM »
Does the husband get a choice?



i learned, you shouldn't be machmir on anothers cheshbon. so if the husband has something to say in the matter, his opinion should be counted and @yuneeq it works both ways

and @churnbabychurn. in certain groups, its not only hair that is always covered. its lights off covers on

and as a practical note, i think if a women shaves then she would rather be covered all the time bec she would feel prettier that way.
i once read in a discussion/blog somewhere. that some satmar women buy long nice wigs for "special" occasions

also, though i would never shave, it is pretty common to have some hair showing with a tichel or even a shaitel. its something a women has to be aware of and fix/adjust when it happens

@satmar guy, kimchis did not have 6 sons die, if a Kohen Gadol wasnt pure he couldnt do the avodah. he didnt have to die.
also it says the walls of her house, remember in those days they bathed in outhouses.

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #257 on: November 15, 2013, 01:36:03 PM »
I'm starting to think that you're not really Satmar, or you have no idea what goes on in KJ. This is a reality, I know first hand of women who got criticized by Mikva ladies about not cutting their hair, and then the Vaad mysteriously found out about it.

"If you want to send your kids to our institutions...." Is that a justification for invading in a persons most intimate private part of their life? it's not like they advertise it, or tell anyone, just that they found out that she goes out of town to the mikva, so they figured out the reason. Is that even justifiable humanely? torahdig?



Not to all these bogus reasons why you need to do it.
Zohar/Kabala: Just says that the hair and nails that grow בימי נדה have some scary little black demons attached to them, but according to this reason, just cutting off the amount that grew in those two weeks would be enough.

סחיטה: If they would really care about that they wouldn't make their men go to the mikva on shabbos morning, and if they did at least make shiurim to tell them how careful they should be about it. Heck, you make women shave their heads their entire lives for this, and you won't stress it to the men who have long beards?
Also, if that would be the real reason wouldn't you make the women shave their whole body?

חציצה: Same as above, nobody cares of you have long hair in other places on your body, so don't try selling to me that חציצה is that's bothering you.

Also, for thousands of years, without proper showers, shampoo, and plenty of water, women got by just fine without חציצות, but now when we have all these things, hygiene is like it's never been before, today you're really worried about it? do we really need to be holier than the imahos?

קמחית: First of all, she didn't shave, she just covered it so well that the walls of her house never saw her hair, so why force someone to shave based on that? Second, going with that logic we would have thousands of כוהנים גדולים today, where are they all? Third, the gemara tells us about it because she was an anomaly, not the norm, the wives of תנאים and אמוראים didn't do it, but you expect it today, why? Forth, I once heard in the name of a Rav, don't remember which, that if קמחית had 7 sons כוהנים גדולים in her lifetime, that means that 6 of her sons died in her lifetime, so why would she be punished in such a way? The answer is because she was מנוול herself before her husband.

No one knows where and when this minhag started, there's no documentation, תשובה, or anything pointing to a point when rabanim decided that women should start doing it. Rather it was started somewhere a few hundred years ago in eastern Europe, and there were a few factors that caused it, non of it were צניעות or anything, and didn't come from high up, rather from the peasants and primitive villages. There was the factor of it being a protection against rape that was prevalent in those days, to disgust the potential perpetrator. Then there was the factor of the belief in those days that knotted hair has some demonic power, and they got that from the goyishe neighbors, not from the zohar. But once the practice became wide spread then all these obscure reasons and justifications started popping up. But those were just that, justifications after the fact.
Wow! Great comments

Offline jj1000

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #258 on: November 15, 2013, 01:39:43 PM »
There's nothing sefardi about what I said. A man sets the halachos of his home; that's the halacha. (Similarly, ever heard that a man can be meifer his wife's neder?) That doesn't mean they can not have a discussion about it. They can have the discussion, and if he still decides that she shouldn't cut her hair, she must listen to him.

I'm not saying that it's reasonable for a husband to decide to go against all his wife's chumras/minhagim. However, there are minhagim or chumros that impact the husband, and those are/should be the ones that in the end of the day, in the husband hands.

Unfortunately, the feminist doctrine seems to have seeped into a couple of posters hashkofas.
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #259 on: November 15, 2013, 01:43:24 PM »
He is.