Author Topic: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"  (Read 89126 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #400 on: November 18, 2013, 09:12:14 AM »
@Satmar lady:

Thanks for the compliments about my fellow ddf friends.
I believe the reason for this to go so peacefully is that we are a forum, which by the way discusses news etc, but it's not the focus to let out our stream here, unless there would be Satmar Air with a special promo to Israel.

You keeping your cool, and a decent English should be taken as a compliment in revenge.

Just a little note if I may: when quoting the many kehillos where satmar is based, you mentioned Antwerp. In Antwerp, and other European kehillos, the satmar are often a different breed than the USA satmar, in the sense that the European ones are much more chnyok, and even more tmeemesdik if you will.
Also in Europe, usually the garb worn will go in function with the level of frumkeit, vs the USA one can have all the garb, no longer frum.

Basically, my point is that satmar USA is a separate entity in this sense, so all the theories involving satmar would maybe define USA satmar, but not the universal one.

Offline Menachem613

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"Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #401 on: November 18, 2013, 09:34:16 AM »
@Satmar lady:

Thanks for the compliments about my fellow ddf friends.
I believe the reason for this to go so peacefully is that we are a forum, which by the way discusses news etc, but it's not the focus to let out our stream here, unless there would be Satmar Air with a special promo to Israel.

You keeping your cool, and a decent English should be taken as a compliment in revenge.

Just a little note if I may: when quoting the many kehillos where satmar is based, you mentioned Antwerp. In Antwerp, and other European kehillos, the satmar are often a different breed than the USA satmar, in the sense that the European ones are much more chnyok, and even more tmeemesdik if you will.
Also in Europe, usually the garb worn will go in function with the level of frumkeit, vs the USA one can have all the garb, no longer frum.

Basically, my point is that satmar USA is a separate entity in this sense, so all the theories involving satmar would maybe define USA satmar, but not the universal one.

Interesting. My personal experience, which is in no way a representative sample, is that among my 1st cousins in London, Willy, BP and KJ (all Satmar), the ones in London are indeed more temimusdik.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 10:06:45 AM by Menachem613 »

Offline yehuda S

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #402 on: November 18, 2013, 11:36:17 AM »
I had a very interesting convo with a Talmud Chacham who mentioned some interesting facts:

He mentioned the zohar talking about this chumrah and also said that one reason for women shaving is a takanah instituted at a time when many Jewish women were being raped by the local gentile villagers. The question here may be whether one is allowed to stop following a takanah after the circumstances change; it's not such a simple thing. Also some may argue that the circumstances are still in effect to some degree.

On the reverse side of this issue he quoted a Gemara (I'll source it later) that says a man can stop his wife from being a Nazirah even at the very end when she is about to bring the korban (after the 30 days of issurim) with the claim that he doesn't want his wife head to look like a watermelon.  :D

So that is some food for thought.
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Offline Satmar Guy

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #403 on: November 18, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »
משנה נזיר פרק ד
Quote
נזרק עליה אחד מן הדמים, אינו יכול להפר.
רבי עקיבא אומר, אפלו נשחטה עליה אחת מכל הבהמות, אינו יכול להפר.
במה דברים אמורים, בתגלחת הטהרה.
אבל בתגלחת הטמאה, יפר טו, שהוא יכול לומר אי אפשי באשה מנולת.
רבי אומר, אף בתגלחת הטהרה יפר, שהוא יכול לומר אי אפשי באשה מגלחת.

Offline Satmar Guy

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #404 on: November 18, 2013, 12:20:51 PM »

@jj: No halachic basis as far as I know, it's just a custom, but I can tell you from what I remember when I was a kallah - you can't compare the work that goes into the hair to any other body hair.
@Satmar Guy: as for the reason it started after thousands of years of not doing so, the way I understand it is that there were some instances of michsholos, where women noticed chatzitzas when it was already too late, so they made this takanah. Tznius makes even more sense - women started wearing smaller head-coverings instead of those huge shawls, so the chance of hair sticking out was greater.
With this logic the same would have to apply to nail polish (I know you don't use it, but not for chatzitza reasons...) handling dough, or any other chatzitza, let's make a new תקנה that women are not allowed to kneed dough, let's see how that will stick.

And re: tznius, I didn't know that they wore "huge shawls" up until 250 years ago, I should go tell historians about this.

As I said, find me one source where you see that this תקנה was premeditated by Rabanim and intentionally instated, and I'll shut up.

And please go read that article, we can't argue on it's merits without you having read it. If you want I can send you the whole text in a PM.

Thanks.

Offline Centro

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #405 on: November 18, 2013, 01:04:25 PM »
With this logic the same would have to apply to nail polish (I know you don't use it, but not for chatzitza reasons...)

AFAIK that is the reason.

Quote
As I said, find me one source where you see that this תקנה was premeditated by Rabanim and intentionally instated, and I'll shut up.


here.

Offline Satmar Guy

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #406 on: November 18, 2013, 03:22:42 PM »

AFAIK that is the reason.
AFAIK it's not.
here.
Those are all justifications and reasons after the fact. If this was indeed a תקנה or גזירה that Rabbanim decreed, such as the וועד ארבע ארצות who is usually credited for it, there would have been some documentation on it, we have the פנקס from the וועד, and many other decrees, but this one was mysteriously omitted.

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #407 on: November 18, 2013, 08:52:37 PM »
@Satmar lady:

Thanks for the compliments about my fellow ddf friends.
I believe the reason for this to go so peacefully is that we are a forum, which by the way discusses news etc, but it's not the focus to let out our stream here, unless there would be Satmar Air with a special promo to Israel.

You keeping your cool, and a decent English should be taken as a compliment in revenge.

Just a little note if I may: when quoting the many kehillos where satmar is based, you mentioned Antwerp. In Antwerp, and other European kehillos, the satmar are often a different breed than the USA satmar, in the sense that the European ones are much more chnyok, and even more tmeemesdik if you will.
Also in Europe, usually the garb worn will go in function with the level of frumkeit, vs the USA one can have all the garb, no longer frum.

Basically, my point is that satmar USA is a separate entity in this sense, so all the theories involving satmar would maybe define USA satmar, but not the universal one.

I'm not sure I got what you're trying to imply, but if it's that I'm European, I haven't set foot on that continent in my life. You just gotta believe this, there is a Satmar school in good old NY with no irreligious graduates as far as I know.
Re: my English, I don't think I stand out among my female peers. Thing is, you only get to hear the men.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:59:10 PM by Satmar Lady »

Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #408 on: November 18, 2013, 09:28:04 PM »
With this logic the same would have to apply to nail polish (I know you don't use it, but not for chatzitza reasons...) handling dough, or any other chatzitza, let's make a new תקנה that women are not allowed to kneed dough, let's see how that will stick.

And re: tznius, I didn't know that they wore "huge shawls" up until 250 years ago, I should go tell historians about this.

As I said, find me one source where you see that this תקנה was premeditated by Rabanim and intentionally instated, and I'll shut up.

And please go read that article, we can't argue on it's merits without you having read it. If you want I can send you the whole text in a PM.

Thanks.

Wow, it sure sounds like you're trying to get me mad with all that sarcasm, but I'm not. (M'derkent az ihr kimt fin a kanuosdige background - nur genitzt oif farkert... uber b'emes, az ihr zent nimos fin "satmarkeiten", vie past di sharfe geredechts? afilu bei di fartzeitische iz es shoin nisht in der mudde.)
If nail polish would be used in our circles, I wouldn't be surprised if they would make a takunah that it shouldn't be applied a significant amount of time prior.
I'm sure you're aware we don't handle dough that day. I don't think it lasts longer.
Did I give the number 250? Many years could pass until a new takunah is issued. And as clearly stated, just my own theory.
To paraphrase your request: As I said, give me the source to what you stated - with seeming certainty - that it originates from peasants. I'm not disproving, it's just hard for me to believe so I want to check that out myself. I actually like finding mekoros to minhagim, legit or otherwise.
I can't speak for every chasidishe woman out there, but I personally don't have a hard time accepting a chumrah that's been the tradition for a while but doesn't have a clear mekor - provided that it makes sense. This chumrah does make sense to me, as I've seen my neighbors' hair plenty of times, and I do remember the difficulty of ridding one's hair from a chatzitzah. If a woman does have an issue with such a chumrah - by all means, find your kids a different school! Just like any school, Satmar has every right to make any rules they wish, as ridiculous as you may find them, as long as they don't force anyone to send there.
I would appreciate getting the article for personal interest, but I never even pretended to argue on its merits. Someone  asked me for my thoughts about the way the woman was treated, and I commented from what I know based on hard facts from different Satmar
communities. It didn't occur to me that KJ would be that different.
 

Offline good sam

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #409 on: November 18, 2013, 10:07:18 PM »
Wow, it sure sounds like you're trying to get me mad with all that sarcasm, but I'm not. (M'derkent az ihr kimt fin a kanuosdige background - nur genitzt oif farkert... uber b'emes, az ihr zent nimos fin "satmarkeiten", vie past di sharfe geredechts? afilu bei di fartzeitische iz es shoin nisht in der mudde.)
CV has a loooong night ahead of him.
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Offline Satmar Lady

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #410 on: November 18, 2013, 10:31:20 PM »
Quote from: sam  ..=topic=34245.msg633907#msg633907 date=1384830438
CV has a loooong dahead of him.
translate.google.comt

Lol - Ehm hub ich inzin gehat!
BTW, es vult geven a gitte eitzah az m'zul nur azoi schreiben ven men baredt andere Yidden. Mir nemen uhn di lashon horah mit ahavas yisrael in der zeit, ubber die chevrah nisht. Gedenkt - "vus ein Yid zugt oif a tzveiten Yid, zugen di areilim oif alle Yidden." (Ich  vult getun die zelbe beim bareden KJ, ubber nuch Satmar Guy vult es geven vi a shirem nuch a regen.)

Offline meshugener

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #411 on: November 18, 2013, 10:35:45 PM »
Ok Dan, its about time you do with this thread what you did with the chabad/mushiach thread.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline aygart

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #412 on: November 18, 2013, 10:38:14 PM »

Lol - Ehm hub ich inzin gehat!
BTW, es vult geven a gitte eitzah az m'zul nur azoi schreiben ven men baredt andere Yidden. Mir nemen uhn di lashon horah mit ahavas yisrael in der zeit, ubber die chevrah nisht. Gedenkt - "vus ein Yid zugt oif a tzveiten Yid, zugen di areilim oif alle Yidden." (Ich  vult getun die zelbe beim bareden KJ, ubber nuch Satmar Guy vult es geven vi a shirem nuch a regen.)
+10000000
Only problem is that I also needed GT from chasidish;D
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Offline Hiding

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #413 on: November 18, 2013, 11:41:06 PM »
There is no such passuk :P
[/ DEVORIM 17 10 !!   GET OFF THE NET AND LEARN SOMETHING quote]

Offline Hiding

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #414 on: November 18, 2013, 11:42:51 PM »
Huh?
Do you know what you're talking about?
ITS THE SHITA OF THE MOGEN AVROHOM

Offline Ergel

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #415 on: November 18, 2013, 11:46:55 PM »
DEVORIM 17 10 !!   GET OFF THE NET AND LEARN SOMETHING quote]
Go look up the passuk. It was quoted incorrectly
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #416 on: November 19, 2013, 12:26:49 AM »
CV has a loooong night ahead of him.
translate.google.com
I might have to hire someone full time.  >:(
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Online Drago

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #417 on: November 19, 2013, 03:01:10 AM »
Ok Dan, its about time you do with this thread what you did with the chabad/mushiach thread.
One of my favorite  :(

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #418 on: November 19, 2013, 08:23:08 AM »
I'm not sure I got what you're trying to imply, but if it's that I'm European, I haven't set foot on that continent in my life. You just gotta believe this, there is a Satmar school in good old NY with no irreligious graduates as far as I know.
Re: my English, I don't think I stand out among my female peers. Thing is, you only get to hear the men.


No, I was not implying that you are european, I was just adding on the fact that I believe the way european satmar are a different breed than the usa ones, and that the usa one is more apt to go off the derech ch"v.

Offline doodle

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #419 on: November 19, 2013, 04:39:57 PM »
Go look up the passuk. It was quoted incorrectly
you said no such pasuk HE SIMPLY MISQUOTED IT . its a famous saying quoted all over.                                        I AGREE WITH MESHUGS (AS USUALL) PLEASE SHUT DOWN THIS THREAD ITS HEADING DOWHILL
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