Author Topic: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"  (Read 58235 times)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2013, 11:43:04 AM »
REPOST!!

If I said the same thing as you, it's probably because you weren't clear enough. Putting the same concept into different words can make a world of a difference.

I don't know to which communities the women i was talking about belong, besides that they are chassidish. I have no idea how they would go about it in Satmar, but this description just doesn't make sense to me, I can't see it happening. How did they even know she doesn't shave? My suspicion, based on similar cases, is this: the school didn't want to have her kids because they were intentionally showing disregard to the Satmar beliefs, and so they found a tangible excuse. The community's view is this: we don't force you to hold our beliefs, but if you want to send your kids to our institutions (and pay $150 monthly tuition!) you gotta do it our way.

I think the fact that you call it Satmar "beliefs"and not stringencies or chumros, only reinforces the opinion of those that think it's an offshoot cult of Judaism.

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2013, 11:44:55 AM »
And I hope you don't either

Why do you hope so? I won't mind seeing every Yid in Olam Haba, I don't feel like it'll take away from my experience in any way.
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Offline wayfe

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #197 on: November 15, 2013, 11:45:55 AM »
The word that's irking me most is cult. It has a decided negative connotation- while it is something all smart human beings lean to. At some point we all realize that there things that are beyond limited human understanding and at that point we search and find a mentor who has greater intellectual and spiritual (because there are things that are beyond logic) capabilities. At that point we put aside our own ideas of logic and listen and accept from those greater than us.

And if that mentor happens to be the same one your parents chose- it's because you went through a rebellious individuation period (which doesn't always have to show itself externally) and through a rational decision decided that your parents worldview worked for you as well.

And then there are always things that people do because of social convention- no matter if you're frum, BT, atheist, Christian, Buddhist or animal.

And at the very least, shaving your hair because your Rebbe told you to is as good a reason to do it as is shaving your hair because Charlize Theron did it.
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Offline yehuda S

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #198 on: November 15, 2013, 11:48:08 AM »
If I said the same thing as you, it's probably because you weren't clear enough. Putting the same concept into different words can make a world of a difference.

I think the fact that you call it Satmar "beliefs"and not stringencies or chumros, only reinforces the opinion of those that think it's an offshoot cult of Judaism.

I'll try not to go overboard here.

On a basic level for this situation I'd say the ability to maintain healthy relationships with your family and community after choosing to leave and with others accepting the choice you've made.

On a more complex level, and this is something I wanted to point out. Read that posted article and you will see something that I think is very commonplace. She talks about being afraid that if she grows her hair, her kids will get be stricken with horrible diseases. I think that this type of psychological conditioning ( which is something we all frum ppl have to one degree or another) takes away our freedom of choice just as much if not more than the other things I've mentioned.

How does that sound?

I thought that made sense...
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Offline wayfe

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #199 on: November 15, 2013, 11:48:17 AM »
And I also think that there is a Tznius factor with shaving- to prevent hair to be seen when it shouldn't.
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2013, 11:49:51 AM »
And I also think that there is a Tznius factor with shaving- to prevent hair to be seen when it shouldn't.

Agree, but it does make me wonder then why they wear a shaitel.

Offline yehuda S

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2013, 11:50:38 AM »
Does someone not-frum have free choice?
Do you know what kind of pressure a BT goes through from family and friends when they want to become more religious.
And yet many of my best friends are BTs and they had the power to tell their parents that will not eat in their homes ever again.  It takes conviction but they made a choice.

Everyone here has free choice and we make that choice every second of every day.

I am aware that every community exercises pressures. That does not mean we are all freer, it means we are all less free.
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Offline Dan

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2013, 11:51:00 AM »
And I also think that there is a Tznius factor with shaving- to prevent hair to be seen when it shouldn't.
If you're wearing a full sheitel why would any of your own hair be seen?
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2013, 11:51:54 AM »
I think the difference between "Judaism"and a Jewish "cult" is based on just one thing:

Having the choice to keep the strict  halacha and nothing more, while still being able to be a part of the community.

Therefore, if a community is not tolerant of those that don't hold of their chumras, or they are simply not educated as to what is a chumra and what isn't, they are effectively ostracizing any community member from their cult.

Ps. I'm not pointing fingers at any  specific community, just giving my 2 cents.
What does being a part of a community mean? If someone doesn't follow any of the minhagim of a community what makes them a part of that community? For example if a modern orthodox kid decides one day college, internet, shaving, and being involved in the world is not what a he as a Jew should be involved in and takes on all satmar minhagim, why would he still be part of the modern orthodox community? If in school he disagrees with everything the teachers and rebbeim say why should he be in that school anymore?

There are many levels of ostracizing/tolerance and I'm not sure which one you are referring to in your post.

I think the fact that you call it Satmar "beliefs"and not stringencies or chumros, only reinforces the opinion of those that think it's an offshoot cult of Judaism.
Really? You don't believe in your community minhagim? If your family feels strongly about an education you don't believe that to be the right thing to do?
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2013, 11:52:18 AM »
Does someone not-frum have free choice?
Do you know what kind of pressure a BT goes through from family and friends when they want to become more religious.
And yet many of my best friends are BTs and they had the power to tell their parents that will not eat in their homes ever again.  It takes conviction but they made a choice.

Everyone here has free choice and we make that choice every second of every day.
+1
You just last week had a couple that the husband became Frum a lot before his wife, while they were telling us their story my wife and I were just sitting there open mouthed.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2013, 11:56:58 AM »
Btw my wifes was taught that the reason why married women cover their hair is because now the hair is special only for the husband, and not for others. This explains how hair can all of a sudden turn into an erva.
I like this explanation, I wonder how the shavers/extreme coverers explain it.

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2013, 11:57:23 AM »
Agree, but it does make me wonder then why they wear a shaitel.


Because they want to look dressed up- and don't you try to convince me that even the $5000 custom European human hair wig can ever look like real hair- it doesn't.
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #207 on: November 15, 2013, 11:57:54 AM »
Btw my wifes was taught that the reason why married women cover their hair is because now the hair is special only for the husband, and not for others. This explains how hair can all of a sudden turn into an erva.
I like this explanation, I wonder how the shavers explain it.
And why not their hands?

It's a cute reason, but doesn't explain much.

Also wifes? Good on ya' :P
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Offline wayfe

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Re: &quot;Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head&quot;
« Reply #208 on: November 15, 2013, 11:58:21 AM »
If you're wearing a full sheitel why would any of your own hair be seen?
stands of hair can stick out, and most women don't wear a full wig the entire day.
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Re: "Ex-Hasidic Woman Marks Five Years Since She Shaved Her Head"
« Reply #209 on: November 15, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »
And why not their hands?

It's a cute reason, but doesn't explain much.
Because then they wouldnt be able to make sandwiches for their husbands.