Author Topic: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten  (Read 13144 times)

Offline good sam

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2013, 12:46:13 AM »
My kid's teacher is the same way and I totally disagree. We tell her about all the people that died. I think it's ridiculous to be so afraid to tell kids that someone died. It's part of life.
I totally agree.  Kids understand death on their level.  No reason to hide the fact from them.  My daughter came home from kindergarden this week with vast parsha knowledge, including the story about Mrs. Potifar wanting to marry Yosef (which of course she couldn't because she was already married to Mr. Potifar), and then she made up a story that Yosef really wanted to marry her, and then Yosef had to go to jail.

But, she gets to the story of the saar haofim, and she says that Paroah "hanged him up."  She had no idea what that meant, so I explained to it to her. Nothing wrong.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2013, 12:47:53 AM »
Also, I love to talk to my kids about my babbies and zeidys.  How do you do that without explaining that they died?
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Offline ckmk47

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2013, 01:19:27 AM »
I think death, when explained is not scary to children.  It only gets scary as one gets older.
You say the neshama went back to Hashem and the body isn't alive any more.  Where are they?  We bury them.  But they can still hear us from shomayim when we talk to them.
disclaimer: My mother passed away when my kids were aged 15 - 4.  Even my children born afterward know that one Zeidy doesn't have a Bobby because he was married to XXX that was nifter.  Everyone has always been cool on it.  Although they all know it made me/ us sad because we miss her.
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Offline Chaikel

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2013, 02:19:49 AM »

Like Shlomo Hamelech said - Chanoch Lenaar al pi darko.
You misunderstand what that means. It doesn't mean pick and choose what to teach them. It means teach them everything, but at their level. Even Maaseh Dina can be explained on a 3 year old's level
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Offline good sam

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2013, 02:22:57 AM »
I think death, when explained is not scary to children.  It only gets scary as one gets older.
You say the neshama went back to Hashem and the body isn't alive any more.  Where are they?  We bury them.  But they can still hear us from shomayim when we talk to them.
disclaimer: My mother passed away when my kids were aged 15 - 4.  Even my children born afterward know that one Zeidy doesn't have a Bobby because he was married to XXX that was nifter.  Everyone has always been cool on it.  Although they all know it made me/ us sad because we miss her.
Sorry  :-\  :'(
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2013, 08:47:42 AM »
You misunderstand what that means. It doesn't mean pick and choose what to teach them. It means teach them everything, but at their level. Even Maaseh Dina can be explained on a 3 year old's level
OK, go explain them Yehuda and Tamar on their level.
In most schools they don't even teach it to 8th graders.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2013, 09:16:10 AM »
As a third grade Rebbi, last week I taught Yossef and his brothers as well as Potifar's wife (who wanted to marry Yossef but couldn't cuz she was already married to Potifar). Yehuda and Tamar we skipped.
As to the complaints by OP I have what to add one I get to a computer...

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2013, 09:20:14 AM »
Just wanted to make one point now, while there is no need to get too graphic of course, I see no problem on kids knowing that there are good people in the world and bad people, good people do good things and bad people do bad things, we should try to emulate and look up to the good people and not to the bad ones.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2013, 10:04:44 AM »
Just wanted to make one point now, while there is no need to get too graphic of course, I see no problem on kids knowing that there are good people in the world and bad people, good people do good things and bad people do bad things, we should try to emulate and look up to the good people and not to the bad ones.
+1
After all this is why we send them to school in the first place! To learn wrong from right.

Online aygart

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2013, 10:11:15 AM »
I've heard of children coming home saying Haman was put in jail because he wanted hurt the Jews. That is mileches Hashem rimiya.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2013, 10:29:45 AM »
I've heard of children coming home saying Haman was put in jail because he wanted hurt the Jews. That is mileches Hashem rimiya.
The yevonm hut gevunen. Influenced from the feminine liberal golus.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2013, 10:32:57 AM »
It's ziyuf hatorah which is yehareg val yaavor
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline yitzf

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2013, 11:20:59 AM »
Not for a 4 year old IMHO. He can understand about schar and onesh, even Olam Haba, without knowing that one day ppl die.
I admit my son is the sensitive type, and if he would be more macho, I might have toldl him about death.
Maybe that's the whole difference between our approaches. My son would be shaken up and disturbed to hear about death. In a year or less he may toughen up enough to hear about it.

Like Shlomo Hamelech said - Chanoch Lenaar al pi darko.
IME the younger the child the easier they take it, if you shock them with it once they are older it can perhaps be traumatic, however if it's part of life since their small then it's just that, part of life.

Offline yitzf

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2013, 11:25:04 AM »
My 3 year old came home with an interesting spin in his parsha sheets this week. The brothers put Yosef in a pit because they were jealous but then they felt bad so the sold him as a slave to mitzrayim. He has no idea what a slave is but there was an emphasis on the feeling bad part.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2013, 11:44:37 AM »

As to the complaints by OP I have what to add one I get to a computer...
Point number 1 From the writings of the Rebbe Rayatz: The quote is from a long Reshimah about a person named Shimon of Zamut (a.k.a. Shimon Hakofer) who was sent by the Maskilim to infiltrate the Chassidic communities in Lita and Ukraine, as part of his mission he spent some time in Lyozna and even got an audiaence with the Alter Rebbe (The Ba'al Hatanya). The entire Reshimah can be found here the relevant part is on page 17. Here it is translated into English courtesy of SIE


Quote
When I entered the Rebbe's chamber, I was struck with fear and awe by his appearance of his face, his powerful and penetrating glance, and his mighty and deliberate voice, inquiring, "What can I do for you?" But I immediately recovered and calmed myself.

I said, "I am an elementary school teacher in my hometown, and I teach my pupils according to the rules of Hebrew grammar. But my fellow teachers oppose me and slander me for it, saying [with sarcasm], 'Why don't you teach the pupils the science of linguistics as well!'

"When I offered - as evidence [that a knowledge of grammar is important] - the Rebbe's new text of the Siddur, which follows exactly the rules of grammar, they had nothing to reply. For the public benefit, I request that you give me a letter of reference, which I can use to demonstrate that it is good to teach young children according to the rules of grammar, to accustom them to read correctly, and to teach them Tanach."

The Rebbe leaned on his forearms for about five minutes. Then, he raised his head, opened his eyes, and said, "You are correct - the hymns and Psalms in the prayers, and especially Kerias Shema, must be recited with great care, following the rules of grammar. But as for teaching grammar and linguistics as academic subjects, one must be very cautious about doing such a thing.

"In the Heavenly Yeshivah, there are separate halls for each kind of study. And right between the hall of grammar study and the hall of linguistics study stands the hall of those who deliberately misinterpret Scripture.

"Now when one's soul ascends to Heaven each night to renew its life spirit, the soul rises to the study hall that corresponds to the subject he studied during the day. But occasionally, one may enter the wrong hall by mistake. Instead of entering the hall of grammar or the hall of linguistics, he may enter the hall of those who deliberately misinterpret Scripture. Therefore, one must be very cautious about studying the subjects of grammar and linguistics."

When he finished speaking, he again leaned on his forearms, as before. Then, he raised his head, opened his eyes, and asked me how I explain to my pupils the verse,[35] "And Yitzchak was seized with very great trembling."

"I explain it according to the first interpretation of Rashi, that it means he was astounded," I replied.

"And why don't you explain it to your pupils according to the second interpretation of Rashi, quoting the Midrash, that he saw Gehennom opened up beneath him?" he asked.

"In my opinion," I replied, "one shouldn't fill the pupils' delicate minds with Aggadah in general, and especially with things that might frighten them, such as Gehennom and the like. Even less, should one teach small children things that they can't even imagine. The pupil will wonder how the large and wide opening of Gehennom could enter into Yitzchak's small room. And how could its fires, which have been constantly blazing for 5,555 years, enter the room, and yet Eisav and his father Yitzchak remained alive and were not burned to a crisp?"

"And how does the Midrash know that he saw Gehennom opened up beneath him?" he asked further.

I remained silent, making no reply. Obviously, I had no answer. Indeed, is this the first gross exaggeration found in the Midrash and Talmud?

When he saw that I remained silent, the Rebbe said, "When Eisav entered Yitzchak's room, Yitzchak asked him, 'Who are you?' To this, Eisav replied, 'I am Eisav, your firstborn son.' But this was a lie, for he had already sold the birthright to Yaakov, in a legal sale with all the required formalities. Now Yitzchak knew this, and thus he was very frightened by this lie designed to annul something that is valid under Torah law. This caused him to tremble, for telling such a lie resulted in Gehennom's opening up beneath him"

When the Rebbe finished speaking, he leaned on his forearms as he had done before. Then, he raised his head and opened his eyes. It is customary that whenever he receives people, even during the daytime, there are two lit candles, a Chumash, and a Zohar on the table. He now lifted one of the two candles and scrutinized me, after which he said:

    You come here from Vilna, but you claim to come from Zamut; you convert little children to the idolatry of Haskalah, but you claim that you are a melamed. [Because of these lies,] Gehennom opens up beneath you. How many souls have you already destroyed? Yet, you continue to rebel. Yes, it's true: you are a heretic, and anyone who goes down that road will never return.

I quickly fled his chamber - the Upper Gan Eden - intending to rush back to my lodgings, and then leave town. I realized that I had fallen into the trap, and feared that I might share the fate of several of our agents [who were caught]: the chassidim stretched them out on a table, pulled down their trousers, and whipped them the way a melamed would spank his pupils.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2013, 11:53:00 AM »
Quote
I quickly fled his chamber - the Upper Gan Eden - intending to rush back to my lodgings, and then leave town. I realized that I had fallen into the trap, and feared that I might share the fate of several of our agents [who were caught]: the chassidim stretched them out on a table, pulled down their trousers, and whipped them the way a melamed would spank his pupils.
Now we're talking! Some over here need this treatment  :D

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2013, 12:00:20 PM »
Now we're talking! Some over here need this treatment  :D
Talk about violence... :P

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2013, 12:01:10 PM »
Talk about violence... :P
Im not in kindergarden

Offline hocker

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »
Btw some extreme chassidim won't let bochurim learn noshim at all!
Can you name one extreme Chasiddus other than maybe HELLbrands?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Violent Curriculum in Kindergarten
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2013, 12:42:57 PM »
Can you name one extreme Chasiddus other than maybe HELLbrands?
Nope, just a rumor I heard. Most do skip Kesubos daf tes though right?