Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 409881 times)

Offline rots5

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2014, 02:21:14 AM »
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.


if im following a correctly, youngerman is stating that if someone lent another guy his cc and didnt pay it back then the lender has to pay the intrest (late payment fees) and not the borrower....

this is 100% true!
If you have any questions please search and then ask. PM me for detailed help.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2014, 07:13:25 AM »
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:18:00 AM by churnbabychurn »

Offline dbel23

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2014, 12:23:46 PM »
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

i see... thanks anyway

Offline skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2014, 12:52:40 PM »
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2014, 01:03:14 PM »
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.
the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.

Offline yhakak

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2014, 01:44:15 PM »
I would disagree, for the simple reason that if the owner of the card contested the charge and told the cc company they let someone else use their card, their funds would not be returned. Ergo, the owner of the card is taking a risk, which makes him a party to the transaction.

the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.


Offline dans fan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
you are mixing up hilchos ribis (yoreh daiah) with choshen mispat, many say that the one who used the credidit card cannot pay the ribis that is a isur veheter so lechumra you may not pay ribis but choshen  mishpat is different. for ex. mr A uses mr B credit card without permission then the credit card holder didnt borrow from bank and re lend it, so its not because its your account that its a automatic borrow and relend. but more because you mean to borrow and re lend, and that can be debated when you mean to borrow for ex. in our case many would never do a cash advance and then lend the cash to these scammers so you may not mean to borrow and relend, there are other reasons olso , the main point is in choshen mishpat if its not 100% clear he can alwys say kim li its very hard to be motzi money from someone not looking to pay back

Offline yzj

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2014, 12:17:03 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2014, 12:28:00 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Offline avremie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2014, 01:04:12 AM »
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

Offline avremie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2014, 01:06:47 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
so its not anti semitism when they go after a whole Jewish community

Offline Freddie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2014, 01:22:27 AM »
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.

Offline avremie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2014, 01:26:06 AM »
Can someone post  copy of the ad for the non-lakewood Jews

Offline Joe4007

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2014, 01:42:32 AM »
Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.
I'm not familiar with this particular scenario, but having the word SHUL in the ad brings me to believe that they ask for a lot of names to apply for.

Regarding the 100K, I assume they take a commission.

Offline shmuelb

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2014, 08:01:06 AM »
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

First time I was in Geula a kid came over to me with story, wallet stolen, needs money for bus... I asked him if he has change of a hundred, he started to pull it out. I grabbed his hsirt and said "if I ever see you do such a thing again...".

I had got the idea from a Country Yossi article I once read. The crook hears money coming and loses his cool. Works in many parts of dealing...

The lesson for US is that the Yetzer Hara entices us with exciting stuff and we lose our equilibrium and clear thinking. השוחד עיני חכמים יעור ויסלף דברים של צדיקים
siyag lachachma :-)