Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 303020 times)

Offline chbochur

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1665 on: January 25, 2019, 09:43:14 AM »

So I guess he left before this key turning point happened

Offline aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1666 on: January 25, 2019, 09:48:02 AM »
They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.

Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.
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Offline S209

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1667 on: January 25, 2019, 09:54:33 AM »
Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.
+1000

This is the worst type of Ponzi scheme. Poor, gullible people with no money to lose, now in debt for more than they can ever afford to pay. Horrible.

Quote
unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives
Bit of an exaggeration but I get your point
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Offline aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1668 on: January 25, 2019, 09:59:35 AM »
Bit of an exaggeration but I get your point
It is not easy to get credit after bankruptcy. You don't think some will have no choice but to end up there?
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Offline S209

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1669 on: January 25, 2019, 10:01:44 AM »
It is not easy to get credit after bankruptcy. You don't think some will have no choice but to end up there?
I agree that some will but you can definitely get meaningful credit (eventually) after a bankruptcy and that’s the worst case scenario for these people. I’m not disagreeing with you that it will be badly damaged long term.
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Online YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1670 on: January 25, 2019, 10:08:15 AM »
High Net Worth Individuals.

I’m guessing those were made whole and the last guys on the bandwagon are now holding the bag.

NOT TRUE!!! I met one very recently he said he all but given up. He specifically said he can stomach it end of day but feels real bad for the newer guys.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1671 on: January 25, 2019, 10:09:04 AM »
So I guess he left before this key turning point happened

Most probably. The writing was on the wall then already though

Offline chbochur

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1672 on: January 25, 2019, 10:11:14 AM »
Most probably. The writing was on the wall then already though
True but it was somewhat bearable. This threw them over the edge.

Online YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1673 on: January 25, 2019, 10:11:58 AM »
Very few Ponzis start off trying to be one. They start as a legitimate investment just like Madoff's hedge fund and Dweks real estate. The issue is them borrowing from one person to pay the other. That is where it becomes a Ponzi scheme. What makes this one much more egregious than the others is how they went after the those desperate and took advantage of them to get them credit card point and are now leaving behind ruined lives of people who may never get out of their hole for the rest of their lives. Madoff's and Dwek's investors made poor investment decisions but very few are left in total financial ruin like the victims here may be. We are dealing with people who are starting off with little to no available money who not only lost what they had but are now in debt for amounts they can never pay and can end up in bankruptcy and unable to ever get meaningful credit for the rest of their lives. The way they now mentioned how if the victims start contesting charges and going to authorities they may also end up with criminal culpability brings out even more their willingness to play games on the cheshbon of other people who don't realize what they are doing. Uch.

Now you’re just being a hater. If you would sit with these people for half hour you would understand that they are just incompetent businessmen. Meant-to-be-lifetime-employees who thought they struck gold.

Good, honest, hardworking, uneducated guys.

Honestly, they took “investments” and GUARANTEED the principle (making it a loan). They never understood the difference, and so were never able to turn around and tell anyone- Sorry, this investment failed and you lost your money.

Offline aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1674 on: January 25, 2019, 10:33:22 AM »
Now you’re just being a hater. If you would sit with these people for half hour you would understand that they are just incompetent businessmen. Meant-to-be-lifetime-employees who thought they struck gold.

Good, honest, hardworking, uneducated guys.

Honestly, they took “investments” and GUARANTEED the principle (making it a loan). They never understood the difference, and so were never able to turn around and tell anyone- Sorry, this investment failed and you lost your money.

I think you are blinded by your involvement there. You have not yet addressed any of the reasons why it is a Ponzi JUST LIKE ANY OTHER and how they weren't preying on little guys who they had no business taking any money from in the first place.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online YesThatsMe

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1675 on: January 25, 2019, 10:37:01 AM »
I think you are blinded by your involvement there. You have not yet addressed any of the reasons why it is a Ponzi JUST LIKE ANY OTHER and how they weren't preying on little guys who they had no business taking any money from in the first place.

My “involvement” is that I’m gone for two years now. Back then things were pretty stable.

Ponzi’s, similarly to Ponzi and Madoff (can’t opine on Dweck) are businesses that evolved into “fake operations”.

There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.

Offline aygart

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1676 on: January 25, 2019, 10:40:37 AM »
My “involvement” is that I’m gone for two years now. Back then things were pretty stable.

Ponzi’s, similarly to Ponzi and Madoff (can’t opine on Dweck) are businesses that evolved into “fake operations”.

There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.

Madoff had real operations as did almost every other Ponzi. They are simply that the took advantage of others once their business went sour. Just like these guys.
"Donkeys live a long time.  None of you has ever seen a dead donkey"
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:54:34 AM by aygart »
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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1677 on: January 25, 2019, 11:17:33 AM »
Madoff had real operations as did almost every other Ponzi. They are simply that the took advantage of others once their business went sour. Just like these guys.
"Donkeys live a long time.  None of you has ever seen a dead donkey"

Wrong re Madoff, wrong re these guys

Offline tzifanya54

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1678 on: January 25, 2019, 11:18:50 AM »
They weren’t a buying group. They actually had very competent buyers, and the underlying fundamentals of their initial products was very promising. HNWI’s (Lakewood standards) were the first round of investors, and they did very competent due diligence. However, the market saturation point for that set of products was pretty narrow, הן מצד the suppliers, and הן מצד, the actual demand. Also, it was very labor intensive to turn around, and the “warehouse” was run pretty inefficiently, which increased overhead (the attitude was we’ll hire until we get the guy who can do it. Now imagine the HR mess).

So they turned to other products. Now the washing machine started spinning water, as most of them couldn’t return over their initial purchase price (I guess that’s buying group style) but the high overhead shot up even more!

Then they bought retail stores in a line they had decent experience with, sunk serious money into it and opened a t****ing company to boot, which was a cause for internal politics, and all went downhill.

In the meantime, the returns on the initial products disappeared to competitors (very common in Amazon, a 2 year cycle for a hot product is considered an eternity). So now nothing was making money, and suddenly the fixed costs of keeping the shop open made them desperate.

At no point did they intend to lose a dime. They had a innocent vision of becoming the next Klein-Pikarski, and understood that they need to take risks. But unfortunately, the risks weren’t calculated and the רבשע wanted otherwise. There were Heter Iskas for every dime. They were non PL.
It’s good they had a hetter Iska. Could you imagine if they stole the money without that?  ::)

Offline LoLo

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1679 on: January 25, 2019, 11:24:55 AM »
There were no fake operations here, there was a money losing business.
They clearly write in the email that the last year it became a Ponzi scheme. The money they swiped went to no business operations.

..hey, why was the email deleted?