Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 621783 times)

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others - Halachic question
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2014, 12:08:17 PM »
-1
however, the loan is really from the cc to the borrower,
bec that borower would normally get his own cc, but cannot due to credit score, etc... so no ribis..
(However if cc owner is benefitting from points, payment bonuses, etc.. then it's obv. a perk to the cc owner, so he's not just doing it as a straight favor..)
You're -1'ing facts. You can view it however you'd like, the poskim for the most part hold that the loan is not directly between the final borrower and the cc company. A good proof of that is that the cc holder is the one that is legally responsible for the debt.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2014, 12:09:16 PM »
+1 exactly

he doesn't have the access to get it from the bank. but you do..
either way, the money does not belong to me/you
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2014, 12:16:41 PM »
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.
Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.

Offline voldemort

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2014, 12:22:55 PM »
Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.
true,however even if the cc company would indeed lend to the final borrower but he still uses your cc for some odd reason its still considered as if u lent him after cc lent you.

Offline BigDanFan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2014, 12:23:35 PM »
Achas Veachas is not agreeing with you, he's explaining that your logic does not change who the loan is to/from. The cc holder is still lending to the final borrower.

Thanks. The CC company refuses to lend to the final borrower. therefore the cardholder borrows from the CC company and in turn lends it to the final borrower.

in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
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Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2014, 12:26:56 PM »
in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
I'm not sure where you got that from, when your card gets swiped you take out a loan from your CC and agree to pay all the fees and interests associated with that loan, the fact that that money ended up by someone else has nothing to do with the transaction between you and the CC company, it's a separate loan between you and the borrower.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2014, 12:31:06 PM »
in any case it's not my money that i'm lending, so if my cc company charges $100 month for the privilege
and i have to pay it (and if he'd have the same exact fee from his cc that refused him) then he'll have to pay --
as long as not a jewish owned cc company..
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.

Offline BigDanFan

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2014, 12:34:13 PM »
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.
k - challenge accepted.. (i've got some fam/friends in the business..  8) )
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2014, 01:41:12 PM »
Your svaros are wishful thinking, that's not the halacha. I've been writing 'most' poskim or something of that nature just in case, so here's your opportunity - find one posek that says what you're saying explicitly. Not that it would matter much, considering it would be k'neged the accepted psak halacha.
I mentioned the sefer "ha'check behalacha" up thread. (IIRC) he also reaches the logical conclusion that the mechanism of a CC swipe is vastly different from a normal loan from A to B via usage of a debit card.
He also brings many sources.

As a ddf'r this should not be complicated to understand!
 The CC company pays merchants and also bills users. Two totally separate arrangements.
I'm assuming that most ppl don't really take the time to properly analyze CC transactions before reaching the simplistic but technically incorrect understanding that A is lending B money.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2014, 02:00:17 PM »
I mentioned the sefer "ha'check behalacha" up thread. (IIRC) he also reaches the logical conclusion that the mechanism of a CC swipe is vastly different from a normal loan from A to B via usage of a debit card.
He also brings many sources.

As a ddf'r this should not be complicated to understand!
 The CC company pays merchants and also bills users. Two totally separate arrangements.
I'm assuming that most ppl don't really take the time to properly analyze CC transactions before reaching the simplistic but technically incorrect understanding that A is lending B money.
You have yet to explain how your explanation about the dual transaction nature of a credit card swipe has any bearing on this dicussion. The fact that the cc pays merchants and bills users has nothing to do with whether or not they're billing the cc holder or the 'user' - in this case the final borrower. The fact is they don't bill the final borrower, they bill the cc holder. Ergo the cc holder holds owes debt to the cc company, not the final borrower. Post a quote from the sefer, I don't know where to find it.

Here's a quote from Rabbi Reisman (link):
Quote
     It is a fairly common practice for someone who is short of cash to borrow a credit card from a friend or relative, and make a purchase with it. When this happens, the person using the card must pay the card owner only the amount of money he actually used for his purchase. He may not pay the finance charges, which accumulate as a result of his purchase. This prohibition applies even if he pay the bank directly.28

28   This is an application of Y.D. 168:17; Mishnas Ribbis 17:7. The reason that his is prohibited is that the bank (or credit card company) which issued the card is lending money to the cardholder. He, in turn, is lending the money to his friend, so that he can make a purchase. This must be viewed as two distinct loans. The first loan was issued by the bank to the cardholder, and he is responsible to make payments to the bank. Interest which is charged on that loan is charged to him. The person who used the card borrowed money from a fellow Jew, and is prohibited from paying more than the exact amount which was borrowed.
     This prohibition applies even when the person using the card pays the bank directly, because payments which are made to the account of the cardholder are considered payments made directly to him.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2014, 02:22:04 PM »
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2014, 03:08:22 PM »
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.
Ahh... I see, so they charge interest on these credit cards for some other reason, not because it's a loan.

Who wrote this sefer whose shita you are relaying? Are you planning on posting a quote, or at least telling us where we can find it? Rabbi Reisman is known as a leading authority on the topic of ribbis, especially as it applies to modern commerce. Your view of the transaction is a novel approach, but it has to have basis. A debit card or a check would be exactly as you describe, but I can't fathom how you can ignore the 'credit' portion of a credit card.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2014, 03:09:33 PM »
Because when the CC Company didn't lend ANYONE money.!
They paid the merchant on behalf of the owner and later bill the owner.


There cannot be ribis if no loan took place!
With all due respect can you explain how a CC transaction is a "loan" ( in the halachic, traditional sense)
A loan is NOT when a third party agrees to pay merchants on your behalf. This is called a chiyuv midin eved kenani.
Goodness. Quote someone already or stop with this shtus
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2014, 03:25:49 PM »
Ok here is a link to the Sefer, it is found in many shuls in Lakewood that have decent libraries. It is a fairly new sefer.
There is no pdf to link to, It will be difficult to post half the sefer where he analyzes the CC but next time I am in a B"M and have time I will bln browse for some "sources" to this "shtus".



[BTW, Whats it called when A gives money to C on B's behalf? A loan...? ]
Again, I am not saying that ribis would never apply, just that its not a regular loan.

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2014, 03:47:11 PM »
Ok here is a link to the Sefer, it is found in many shuls in Lakewood that have decent libraries. It is a fairly new sefer.
There is no pdf to link to, It will be difficult to post half the sefer where he analyzes the CC but next time I am in a B"M and have time I will bln browse for some "sources" to this "shtus".



[BTW, Whats it called when A gives money to C on B's behalf? A loan...? ]
Again, I am not saying that ribis would never apply, just that its not a regular loan.
What you are describing is essentially payment processing, and that is a feature of credit cards that is shared by debit cards and checks. Credit cards have the added feature of creating a loan. That loan is between the cc holder and the cc company. Perforce, there is a second loan between the cc holder and the final borrower.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #215 on: January 13, 2014, 03:52:13 PM »
What you are describing is essentially payment processing, and that is a feature of credit cards that is shared by debit cards and checks. Credit cards have the added feature of creating a loan. That loan is between the cc holder and the cc company. Perforce, there is a second loan between the cc holder and the final borrower.
With a DC the merchant only gets paid after confirmation that there is cash available in the owners account. The bank is not laying out any money at all. It is a direct payment from the owner to the merchant and therefore is a loan if someone els is using his DC.

With a CC the bank pays the merchant and separately bills the holder. The merchant relies on the CC bank to pay him (With Visa/MC its immediate and with AMEX a couple of days iirc). The holder is not part of the transaction in any way and is billed on a separate pre agreed upon schedule.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #216 on: January 13, 2014, 04:08:48 PM »
With a DC the merchant only gets paid after confirmation that there is cash available in the owners account. The bank is not laying out any money at all. It is a direct payment from the owner to the merchant and therefore is a loan if someone els is using his DC.

With a CC the bank pays the merchant and separately bills the holder. The merchant relies on the CC bank to pay him (With Visa/MC its immediate and with AMEX a couple of days iirc). The holder is not part of the transaction in any way and is billed on a separate pre agreed upon schedule.
I don't know why you keep bringing up the merchant. We don't care about the merchant. Are you disputing the fact that in every cc transaction (including when a person uses their own cc) the cc holder is borrowing money?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #217 on: January 13, 2014, 04:13:21 PM »
I don't know why you keep bringing up the merchant. We don't care about the merchant. Are you disputing the fact that in every cc transaction (including when a person uses their own cc) the cc holder is borrowing money?
correct. This is not a halachic loan. He may be obligated to pay the CC back under other halchos but not malveh loveh.

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #218 on: January 13, 2014, 04:23:37 PM »
correct. This is not a halachic loan. He may be obligated to pay the CC back under other halchos but not malveh loveh.
In what way is this not a halachic loan? If that's the case, you also would be able to get a cc from a Jewish cc company and pay interest on it. After all, it's not a loan.

Out of curiosity, does the author pasken this way on his own, or does he quote others who pasken this way?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #219 on: January 13, 2014, 04:32:27 PM »
In what way is this not a halachic loan? If that's the case, you also would be able to get a cc from a Jewish cc company and pay interest on it. After all, it's not a loan.

Out of curiosity, does the author pasken this way on his own, or does he quote others who pasken this way?
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.

The last time I read the sefer was months ago, it is full of footnotes and sources.
All I am pointing out is that the CC is more complicated halachically than a regular loan. This has implications in many many halochos. I dont claim to know the bottom line, especially when it comes to ribis.