Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 621791 times)

Offline Dr Moose

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #220 on: January 13, 2014, 04:40:53 PM »
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.
whats the difference if A gives money to C without it going through B? or if B took the money from A and then gave to C?
In both cases B is borrowing money from A to give money to C.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #221 on: January 13, 2014, 04:44:20 PM »
When A gives money to C on behalf of B its not necessarily a loan.

The last time I read the sefer was months ago, it is full of footnotes and sources.
All I am pointing out is that the CC is more complicated halachically than a regular loan. This has implications in many many halochos. I dont claim to know the bottom line, especially when it comes to ribis.
Your (I realize you're just quoting the sefer, you're his proxy on this thread, sorry ;D) presumption that A is giving money to C on behalf of B, as opposed to A lending to B and B lending to C, seems disconnected with reality.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #222 on: January 13, 2014, 04:45:26 PM »
whats the difference if A gives money to C without it going through B? or if B took the money from A and then gave to C?
In both cases B is borrowing money from A to give money to C.
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #223 on: January 13, 2014, 04:46:43 PM »
Your (I realize you're just quoting the sefer, you're his proxy on this thread, sorry ;D) presumption that A is giving money to C on behalf of B, as opposed to A lending to B and B lending to C, seems disconnected with reality.
Not at all. You do agree that this is technically what is happening, after all A will pay C regardless to whether or not B pays A?

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #224 on: January 13, 2014, 04:57:20 PM »
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?
In this case A doesn't know C, doesn't know the money is going to C and would actually be Moicheh if he found out the money was going to C.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #225 on: January 13, 2014, 05:04:19 PM »
Quote
הילך מנה והתקדשי לפלוני מקודשת מדין עבד כנעני. עבד כנעני לאו אף ע"ג דלא קא חסר ולא מידי קא קני נפשיה האי גברא נמי אע"ג דלא קא חסר ולא מידי קא קני לה להאי איתתא
Here too B(cc holder) is not paying anything.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 05:18:01 PM by churnbabychurn »

Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #226 on: January 13, 2014, 05:08:56 PM »
Here too A(cc holder) is not paying anything.
A was the cc company, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Offline Dr Moose

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #227 on: January 13, 2014, 05:11:05 PM »
for clarification
A - cc company
B - cc holder
C - merchant
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Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #228 on: January 13, 2014, 05:21:14 PM »
Here too B(cc holder) is not paying anything.
How is he not paying anything? If the bill isn't paid, do they not charge interest on his account and eventually send collection agencies to him? Of course he's paying!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #229 on: January 13, 2014, 05:30:04 PM »
How is he not paying anything? If the bill isn't paid, do they not charge interest on his account and eventually send collection agencies to him? Of course he's paying!
What did D (friend) do to cause B to be obligated to pay money? (Even principal)
He swiped a card. The card is an agreement btwn B an A that says that A will give C money.
 When A does give C money, this causes a hischayvus between B and A, this hischayvus would not be a chov rather a hischayvus midin eved.

The $48k question is:
When D causes the hischayvus of B to A, under what din does D now owe B money?

Offline voldemort

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #230 on: January 13, 2014, 07:42:26 PM »
if anyone does want to pass on his cc's intrest fees without ribis,a heter iska can be drawn up fairly easily  which will remove the problem,it can even work on more than one loan involving the same two people.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #231 on: January 14, 2014, 11:06:08 AM »
Over the past few months many stories have come to my attention of people swiping for companies or people, and getting scammed to the tune of $100k+ each.

I'm not saying you can't offer to put something on your credit card for someone, but be smart. Even the most honest trustworthy people can hit a rough patch and be unable to pay back.

The specific stories I've been told were of out right scammers. Some had a great reputation, and were part of a community.

Bottom line - At the very least, consider swiping for someone an investment with risk. Don't put down more money than you can afford to lose. Even million dollar companies go under. Ask yourself, are you really willing to risk $20-50k and up for a few points?

If you believe you can trust someone, you should still have a hard limit in the range you can afford to lose, and don't go over it. The guy has truckloads of cash? Then let him prepay you, or put the money in escrow.

This is a very serious matter. Lives have been ruined. You've been warned.

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I think this thread has gotten a bit off topic.  Isn't there a Halacha thread?

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=11285.0


Or if you ask CV,  http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=12784.0

 Maybe someone should open a Ribis thread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 11:13:41 AM by zh cohen »

Offline Moshe123

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #232 on: January 14, 2014, 11:09:02 AM »

I think this thread has gotten a bit off topic.  Isn't there a Halacha thread? Maybe someone should open a Ribis thread.

Yes, it should be chopped off into a different thread.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #233 on: January 14, 2014, 11:13:11 AM »
Its just how choshen mishpat works.
 If for example one was mekadesh an isha in this way it would possibly work midin eved kenani. Same here....
No?
In terms of ribbis ktzuzah you are probably correct (probably has to do with shlichus la'kum l'chumra questions). But, I think it's pashut you have a problem midrabanan
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline wonderlust

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #234 on: March 04, 2014, 11:24:10 AM »
cant the card holder deny the charges? can claim they never ordered it and the merchant will have to deal with the fallout with his suppliers?

Offline SamKey

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #235 on: March 04, 2014, 11:36:18 AM »
cant the card holder deny the charges? can claim they never ordered it and the merchant will have to deal with the fallout with his suppliers?
You are responsible for AU

Offline wonderlust

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #236 on: March 04, 2014, 12:53:22 PM »
but u can say u never made the order (which is true if it wasnt an authorized user

Online ushdadude

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #237 on: March 04, 2014, 12:58:15 PM »
but u can say u never made the order (which is true if it wasnt an authorized user

Try it
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline wonderlust

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #238 on: March 04, 2014, 01:20:03 PM »
hope 2 never be in that situation

Offline Freddie

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #239 on: March 14, 2014, 06:16:03 AM »
Found it...



I just saw a similar ad in this week's Ami.