Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1182462 times)

Offline LoLo

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 3772
  • Total likes: 197
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4140 on: December 29, 2020, 05:34:27 PM »
Are you counting the holiday weekend as part of your 5 days?

Offline m65

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 725
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: israel
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4141 on: December 29, 2020, 05:58:23 PM »
Are you counting the holiday weekend as part of your 5 days?
i stand corrected.
posts removed

Offline El Capitan

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2019
  • Posts: 510
  • Total likes: 70
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
  • Programs: Haha I wish!
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4142 on: January 05, 2021, 03:27:43 PM »
PSA: if you're like me and like to print checks to pdf make sure you backup a copy! I got a check from emb about 2 weeks ago and printed it to a pdf on a usb to print at work and I put the usb in and the file was corrupted. I did cut and paste instead of copy...
So now they're trying to get me another copy but I can't print it so they're trying to figure out the problem but for all you out there here's a way to avoid potential heartache.
Sorry for not updating. BH The matter has been resolved.
Still looking for a good MS method :)

Offline YossieW

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 3823
  • Total likes: 350
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 516
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4143 on: January 08, 2021, 12:52:16 PM »
i was loaning a friend money multiple times via cc over the last couple of years in amounts i knew i had covered if there was ever an issue, he always paid me me back but most recently skipped town and is defaulting obviusly and i have now heard multiple people are owed money
so i have the money to cover it, i was just wondering if anyone has looked into the legal aspect of disputing the CC charges from the most recent loan which is spread on a couple of cards

Offline lubaby

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5335
  • Total likes: 736
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4144 on: January 08, 2021, 12:55:58 PM »
i was loaning a friend money multiple times via cc over the last couple of years in amounts i knew i had covered if there was ever an issue, he always paid me me back but most recently skipped town and is defaulting obviusly and i have now heard multiple people are owed money
so i have the money to cover it, i was just wondering if anyone has looked into the legal aspect of disputing the CC charges from the most recent loan which is spread on a couple of cards
Start reading here:
So I’m getting confused about one point and hoping someone can clarify:
I did give my card to someone in January and gave him permission to use it for a few months. All those bills were paid in full, on time. I texted him in April to stop and close the accounts, and he said he would. Only problem was, he kept using them instead! The bills were still paid on time,except for the final charge which was never paid and citi closed the cards only three weeks after that charge. That June charge was most definitely unauthorized by me, and I have no idea actually what happened, as I can’t reach the person who originally borrowed my cards.
Can I claim the charge was unauthorized, or since I at one point lent him my card I can’t ?

Offline Yo ssi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2019
  • Posts: 6657
  • Total likes: 2588
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 60
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4145 on: January 08, 2021, 12:59:13 PM »
Start reading here:
As well as the links in wiki.
Can't believe it's still happening..
_    ,
' )  /
 /  / __   _   _   o
(__/_(_)  /_)_/_)_<_
 //
(/

Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3763
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4146 on: January 08, 2021, 03:32:20 PM »
“Lending” money to “friends” with credit cards is financial Russian roulette.

Offline YossieW

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 3823
  • Total likes: 350
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 516
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4147 on: January 09, 2021, 09:07:38 PM »
i was loaning a friend money multiple times via cc over the last couple of years in amounts i knew i had covered if there was ever an issue, he always paid me me back but most recently skipped town and is defaulting obviusly and i have now heard multiple people are owed money
so i have the money to cover it, i was just wondering if anyone has looked into the legal aspect of disputing the CC charges from the most recent loan which is spread on a couple of cards

i wanted to add a few more details to this, a person who i thought was one of my closest friends asked me if he could borrow some money, it was not a points farm or cc sighnup or anything this was someone who was a friend for years and years
he said he had some jobs lined up in his field of work and needed the money to tie him over until he could finish those and pay me back
as mentioned over the last several years i had helped him out a couple of times and was always paid back pretty close to on time
what i did not realize was this time he went to several other people a couple of months back and asked for the same thing and many other like myself considered him a friend and lent him as well
we then found out this week about 10 days before the loan was due to be paid back that he left town, without letting his family or anyone know until he was gone, which is when i found out that several other people had lent him money, many of which were many times the amount i had lent
as per advice form here and several other people i never lent more then i was prepared to lose which i will if i have to, i was just wondering if anyone had any experience since the transactions were done on a credit card is there any way to legally due a chargeback or should i just eat the loss

Offline zale

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1424
  • Total likes: 374
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4148 on: January 09, 2021, 09:24:47 PM »
i wanted to add a few more details to this, a person who i thought was one of my closest friends asked me if he could borrow some money, it was not a points farm or cc sighnup or anything this was someone who was a friend for years and years
he said he had some jobs lined up in his field of work and needed the money to tie him over until he could finish those and pay me back
as mentioned over the last several years i had helped him out a couple of times and was always paid back pretty close to on time
what i did not realize was this time he went to several other people a couple of months back and asked for the same thing and many other like myself considered him a friend and lent him as well
we then found out this week about 10 days before the loan was due to be paid back that he left town, without letting his family or anyone know until he was gone, which is when i found out that several other people had lent him money, many of which were many times the amount i had lent
as per advice form here and several other people i never lent more then i was prepared to lose which i will if i have to, i was just wondering if anyone had any experience since the transactions were done on a credit card is there any way to legally due a chargeback or should i just eat the loss

This isn't really the same as the other stories on this thread. In this case you gave your friend a straight up loan to help him get by (A Mitzvah), and he was unable to pay back. You understood the risk when you gave it to him, and decided to give it to him anyway. You could have asked for a collateral or a guarantor, but you decided not to as a friend. It's a very unfortunate situation, but you have to move on. Maybe just maybe he will come into money one day and pay you back, but don't count on it. For now, consider the money tzedaka, which apparently it was.

You can try to charge it back, but you will have to tell the credit card company on what basis you are charging it back. Based on what I've seen upthread, it can backfire.


Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3763
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4149 on: January 09, 2021, 09:28:40 PM »
i wanted to add a few more details to this, a person who i thought was one of my closest friends asked me if he could borrow some money, it was not a points farm or cc sighnup or anything this was someone who was a friend for years and years
he said he had some jobs lined up in his field of work and needed the money to tie him over until he could finish those and pay me back
as mentioned over the last several years i had helped him out a couple of times and was always paid back pretty close to on time
what i did not realize was this time he went to several other people a couple of months back and asked for the same thing and many other like myself considered him a friend and lent him as well
we then found out this week about 10 days before the loan was due to be paid back that he left town, without letting his family or anyone know until he was gone, which is when i found out that several other people had lent him money, many of which were many times the amount i had lent
as per advice form here and several other people i never lent more then i was prepared to lose which i will if i have to, i was just wondering if anyone had any experience since the transactions were done on a credit card is there any way to legally due a chargeback or should i just eat the loss
You borrowed the money from the bank.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1393
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4150 on: January 09, 2021, 10:32:09 PM »
i wanted to add a few more details to this, a person who i thought was one of my closest friends asked me if he a

we then found out this week about 10 days before the loan was due to be paid back that he left town, without letting his family or anyone know until he was gone, which is when i found out that several other people had lent him money, many of which were many times the amount i had lent
Forget the money.  This doesn't sound like a scam, but like someone unable to deal with the sudden realization that they're over their head in debt so they skip town because they don't know how to handle it.  I would worry about his mental health.  Does the family know where he is?

Offline neveryou

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2019
  • Posts: 584
  • Total likes: 262
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4151 on: January 09, 2021, 10:40:04 PM »
This isn't really the same as the other stories on this thread. In this case you gave your friend a straight up loan to help him get by (A Mitzvah), and he was unable to pay back. You understood the risk when you gave it to him, and decided to give it to him anyway. You could have asked for a collateral or a guarantor, but you decided not to as a friend. It's a very unfortunate situation, but you have to move on. Maybe just maybe he will come into money one day and pay you back, but don't count on it. For now, consider the money tzedaka, which apparently it was.

You can try to charge it back, but you will have to tell the credit card company on what basis you are charging it back. Based on what I've seen upthread, it can backfire.
I know plenty of people that did chargebacks, never heard of it backfiring, worst case scenario you get the charge put back

The sooner you do the chargeback the better, from what I've seen the people that did the chargeback sooner were more successful than the people that waited to do a chargeback

Offline drosenberg88429

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 561
  • Total likes: 1142
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4152 on: January 09, 2021, 10:46:25 PM »
I know plenty of people that did chargebacks, never heard of it backfiring, worst case scenario you get the charge put back

The sooner you do the chargeback the better, from what I've seen the people that did the chargeback sooner were more successful than the people that waited to do a chargeback

Who is the charge by?

Charging back when you authorized charge is pretty close to straight up geneiva, so I would ask competent LOR first.

Hamakom yemale chisroncha.

Offline Yehudaa

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2018
  • Posts: 3603
  • Total likes: 2404
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 111
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4153 on: January 09, 2021, 10:56:31 PM »
i was loaning a friend money multiple times via cc over the last couple of years in amounts i knew i had covered if there was ever an issue, he always paid me me back but most recently skipped town and is defaulting obviusly and i have now heard multiple people are owed money
so i have the money to cover it, i was just wondering if anyone has looked into the legal aspect of disputing the CC charges from the most recent loan which is spread on a couple of cards

I don't know anything disputes, but in case you haven't yet done so, cancel your card or report it lost/stolen asap to prevent your friend from 'borrowing' any more at this point. Especially if he skipped town and has nothing to lose, he may try to 'borrow' some more from people.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4255
  • Total likes: 812
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4154 on: January 09, 2021, 11:06:15 PM »
Law ethics and halacha aside, the fact of the smaller scale (individual vs farm) makes it more likely for a chargeback (if valid reason claimed) to br successful.
Will shift the loss to whatever mosad/business/gmach he was swiping by.
(unless he was swiping at his own terminal....)

Online zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1501
  • Total likes: 1675
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4155 on: January 09, 2021, 11:19:31 PM »

Will shift the loss to whatever mosad/business/gmach he was swiping by.

This is an important point that people don't pay attention to. If people would think about the fact that they aren't taking money from the CC company, they are taking it from the merchant, they may not be so quick to charge back.

(IIRC, Dan had a rant about this after one of the DD seminars)

Offline YossieW

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 3823
  • Total likes: 350
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 516
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4156 on: January 09, 2021, 11:27:17 PM »

Offline lcm

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 1599
  • Total likes: 639
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: 5th paragraph of https://www.dansdeals.com/sms/
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4157 on: January 09, 2021, 11:54:23 PM »
This is an important point that people don't pay attention to. If people would think about the fact that they aren't taking money from the CC company, they are taking it from the merchant, they may not be so quick to charge back.

(IIRC, Dan had a rant about this after one of the DD seminars)
Now who is going to start a chargeback insurance company? Maybe this belongs in The billion $ idea thread

Offline drosenberg88429

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 561
  • Total likes: 1142
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4158 on: January 10, 2021, 12:47:52 AM »
Now who is going to start a chargeback insurance company? Maybe this belongs in The billion $ idea thread

There are numerous companies which offer this.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30533
  • Total likes: 7829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4159 on: January 10, 2021, 10:45:24 AM »
There are numerous companies which offer this.

What do they do for companies with shady business models/practices? Charge them sky high premiums?

Isn’t it worth it to self-ensure? Especially considering that as a merchant you’re unlikely to lose a chargeback on a high-ticket charge if you did your part.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael