Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1255822 times)

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5420 on: January 14, 2024, 04:08:27 PM »
Unfortunately I did not follow the advice listed here, and lent what I thought was a trusted friend tens of thousands of dollars via credit card charges, for what was supposed to be a three week loan. It's been over a year and I have almost given up hope of being repaid.
Does anyone know if I can still dispute the charges with AMEX, and if yes, what the best dispute claim would be?

I have a bounced check and text messages showing intent of repayment, in case that is helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Don't see on what legal basis you can dispute the charge - even if it was within the time... YOU ALLOWED HIM TO MAKE THE CHARGE...
CC fraud IS punishable by time...
Just bec you played one stupid game - dont play another...

Offline solmeir

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5421 on: January 14, 2024, 07:11:11 PM »
Where were the charges made?

Offline zalman2bis

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5422 on: January 14, 2024, 07:55:28 PM »
I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)

Offline TheAsh

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5423 on: January 14, 2024, 11:29:26 PM »
Unfortunately I did not follow the advice listed here, and lent what I thought was a trusted friend tens of thousands of dollars via credit card charges, for what was supposed to be a three week loan. It's been over a year and I have almost given up hope of being repaid.
Does anyone know if I can still dispute the charges with AMEX, and if yes, what the best dispute claim would be?

I have a bounced check and text messages showing intent of repayment, in case that is helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Take him ti bes din?
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Offline UKinNYS

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5424 on: January 14, 2024, 11:31:35 PM »
If one lends money with a shtar what recourse will that give him in court.

disclaimer: NOT legal advice
If there is Beis Din you trust and the shtar clearly set the BD as the binding legal arbitrator, they can potentially hand down a psak/settlement thats enforceable in court.

Offline imayid2

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5425 on: January 15, 2024, 12:21:06 AM »
Take him ti bes din?
He probably doesn’t have the money to pay up so not much BD can do about that

Offline AsherO

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5426 on: January 15, 2024, 09:34:55 AM »
I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)

If you're going into it with this mindset you might want to consider not lending in the first place.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline ckmk47

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5427 on: January 15, 2024, 10:32:45 AM »
If you're going into it with this mindset you might want to consider not lending in the first place.
No.
Every time you lend money you're required to  have witnesses or a signed shtar.  Otherwise, you're over lifnei iver.  Because he has no halachik reason to pay you back without proof.
My favorite cause: cssy.org

Offline whacked1

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5428 on: January 15, 2024, 10:37:53 AM »
I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)
Sure, a recourse loan with a personal guaranty.

Offline AsherO

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5429 on: January 15, 2024, 10:50:16 AM »
No.
Every time you lend money you're required to  have witnesses or a signed shtar.  Otherwise, you're over lifnei iver.  Because he has no halachik reason to pay you back without proof.

I'm not saying people shouldn't lend money or make contracts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but from the phrasing of the questions it's almost like he's expecting to have to enforce the countract in BD to get paid.
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Offline whacked1

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5430 on: January 15, 2024, 10:53:24 AM »
I'm not saying people shouldn't lend money or make contracts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but from the phrasing of the questions it's almost like he's expecting to have to enforce the countract in BD to get paid.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst

Offline zalman2bis

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5431 on: January 15, 2024, 05:50:30 PM »
I'm wondering in real life scenario,
If you show up in a secular court, with an email, text, shtar, or witnesses, that an individual borrowed money from you, will the judge accept that?
In most cases you can show the transfer of funds. Talking to prove it was a loan and not a gift.
And if yes, what will the court do about it?
Not looking for advice. Looking for information or DP. TIA.

Offline Mordyk

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5432 on: January 15, 2024, 06:16:50 PM »
I'm wondering in real life scenario,
If you show up in a secular court, with an email, text, shtar, or witnesses, that an individual borrowed money from you, will the judge accept that?
In most cases you can show the transfer of funds. Talking to prove it was a loan and not a gift.
And if yes, what will the court do about it?
Not looking for advice. Looking for information or DP. TIA.
you can't use a credit card for this use. You will be implicating yourself in fraud. Why would you do that?
#TYH

Offline yk

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5433 on: January 15, 2024, 07:20:16 PM »
Thanks for the helpful comments above.

I reached out to an attorney who advised that while a court would take out a judgement in my favor, it would be very difficult if not impossible to collect. There may be a possibility of putting a lean on assets such as a home, but that remains to be researched some more.

In any event, hopefully this at least serves as another word of caution to anyone following to be careful and not lend more than you have. Thankfully I didn't swipe more than I had in savings and can only hope that one day I'll be repaid.

PS a buying group is also 2 months late in issuing checks, so be careful all around :).

Offline Randomex

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5434 on: January 15, 2024, 09:11:21 PM »
(That's "lien.")
"Any word can mean anything! By giving words new meanings, ordinary English can become an exclusionary code!" -Cal.&Hob.

Offline shapsam

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5435 on: January 15, 2024, 09:27:32 PM »
you can't use a credit card for this use. You will be implicating yourself in fraud. Why would you do that?
Fraud to let someone borrow your credit card?

Offline TheAsh

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5436 on: January 17, 2024, 11:00:13 AM »


This ad IS in fact Letoeles Harabim. No commission.
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Offline chevron

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5437 on: January 17, 2024, 11:26:31 AM »
The cc benefits of cash outlay if you can afford it, rewards for spend and other stuff like charge back protection make it better than cash in many ways.. if you lose $500 cash or it's stolen you really won't get it back but on a cc you have protection

The interest rates work against you. It's just a sinking cycle and an overwhelming feeling of helplessness and hopelessness to be trapped in 25% 50k debt

I was there and I got it. Don't go down that path.

Besides the losses of interest, think 5000 a year lost to interest could be getting you $300 plus in positive interest in savings or CD

The damage to your credit score is quite expensive if you need a car etc

I didn't lend out my cards, I just built a business that was variable and certain contracts collapsed etc I got out in time and was able to recover thanks to a DDF member

I used that knowledge to help my brother as well pay his cards to zero

Don't think of your recourses on 50k of cc debt. Don't ever go there.

Better to raise money in shul or door to door than to have 50k in high interest cc debt

Offline DaasTora

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5438 on: January 18, 2024, 09:37:31 PM »
I didn't lend out my cards, I just built a business that was variable
Just the other day a friend of mine was asking me how apr works. Is it 23 percent monthly or annually…
I literally got emotional and started yelling “don’t do that “. He started up a business on ink cards and the 12 months are coming to an end…….

Offline chbochur

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5439 on: January 18, 2024, 09:41:45 PM »
Just the other day a friend of mine was asking me how apr works. Is it 23 percent monthly or annually…
I literally got emotional and started yelling “don’t do that “. He started up a business on ink cards and the 12 months are coming to an end…….
Tell him to apply for a new ink and move the existing credit line to the new card and start the 12 months again.
(I know I over simplified it. Pm for more info)