PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others

[yfr bachur]

Unfortunately I did not follow the advice listed here, and lent what I thought was a trusted friend tens of thousands of dollars via credit card charges, for what was supposed to be a three week loan. It's been over a year and I have almost given up hope of being repaid.
Does anyone know if I can still dispute the charges with AMEX, and if yes, what the best dispute claim would be?

I have a bounced check and text messages showing intent of repayment, in case that is helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Don't see on what legal basis you can dispute the charge - even if it was within the time... YOU ALLOWED HIM TO MAKE THE CHARGE...
CC fraud IS punishable by time...
Just bec you played one stupid game - dont play another...

[solmeir]

Where were the charges made?

[zalman2bis]

I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)

[TheAsh]

Unfortunately I did not follow the advice listed here, and lent what I thought was a trusted friend tens of thousands of dollars via credit card charges, for what was supposed to be a three week loan. It's been over a year and I have almost given up hope of being repaid.
Does anyone know if I can still dispute the charges with AMEX, and if yes, what the best dispute claim would be?

I have a bounced check and text messages showing intent of repayment, in case that is helpful.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Take him ti bes din?

[UKinNYS]

If one lends money with a shtar what recourse will that give him in court.

disclaimer: NOT legal advice
If there is Beis Din you trust and the shtar clearly set the BD as the binding legal arbitrator, they can potentially hand down a psak/settlement thats enforceable in court.

[imayid2]

Take him ti bes din?

He probably doesn’t have the money to pay up so not much BD can do about that

[AsherO]

I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)

If you're going into it with this mindset you might want to consider not lending in the first place.

[ckmk47]

If you're going into it with this mindset you might want to consider not lending in the first place.

No.
Every time you lend money you're required to  have witnesses or a signed shtar.  Otherwise, you're over lifnei iver.  Because he has no halachik reason to pay you back without proof.

[whacked1]

I wanted to find out this for a while.
If one lends money with a shtar with or without witnesses, or perhaps even with a text message or email that it's a loan, what recourse will that give him in court. Will any of the above work?
And if one makes a shtar regarding letting one make a charge on his card, does that work as well in court?
And if it does work, will the court seize assets on the lenders behalf?
Wondering if there are safer ways for people to do this.
(Perhaps it belongs in the lawyer thread.)

Sure, a recourse loan with a personal guaranty.

[AsherO]

No.
Every time you lend money you're required to  have witnesses or a signed shtar.  Otherwise, you're over lifnei iver.  Because he has no halachik reason to pay you back without proof.

I'm not saying people shouldn't lend money or make contracts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but from the phrasing of the questions it's almost like he's expecting to have to enforce the countract in BD to get paid.

[whacked1]

I'm not saying people shouldn't lend money or make contracts. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but from the phrasing of the questions it's almost like he's expecting to have to enforce the countract in BD to get paid.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst

[zalman2bis]

I'm wondering in real life scenario,
If you show up in a secular court, with an email, text, shtar, or witnesses, that an individual borrowed money from you, will the judge accept that?
In most cases you can show the transfer of funds. Talking to prove it was a loan and not a gift.
And if yes, what will the court do about it?
Not looking for advice. Looking for information or DP. TIA.

[Mordyk]

I'm wondering in real life scenario,
If you show up in a secular court, with an email, text, shtar, or witnesses, that an individual borrowed money from you, will the judge accept that?
In most cases you can show the transfer of funds. Talking to prove it was a loan and not a gift.
And if yes, what will the court do about it?
Not looking for advice. Looking for information or DP. TIA.

you can't use a credit card for this use. You will be implicating yourself in fraud. Why would you do that?

[yk]

Thanks for the helpful comments above.

I reached out to an attorney who advised that while a court would take out a judgement in my favor, it would be very difficult if not impossible to collect. There may be a possibility of putting a lean on assets such as a home, but that remains to be researched some more.

In any event, hopefully this at least serves as another word of caution to anyone following to be careful and not lend more than you have. Thankfully I didn't swipe more than I had in savings and can only hope that one day I'll be repaid.

PS a buying group is also 2 months late in issuing checks, so be careful all around .

[Randomex]

(That's "lien.")

[shapsam]

you can't use a credit card for this use. You will be implicating yourself in fraud. Why would you do that?

Fraud to let someone borrow your credit card?

[TheAsh]

This ad IS in fact Letoeles Harabim. No commission.

[chevron]

The cc benefits of cash outlay if you can afford it, rewards for spend and other stuff like charge back protection make it better than cash in many ways.. if you lose $500 cash or it's stolen you really won't get it back but on a cc you have protection

The interest rates work against you. It's just a sinking cycle and an overwhelming feeling of helplessness and hopelessness to be trapped in 25% 50k debt

I was there and I got it. Don't go down that path.

Besides the losses of interest, think 5000 a year lost to interest could be getting you $300 plus in positive interest in savings or CD

The damage to your credit score is quite expensive if you need a car etc

I didn't lend out my cards, I just built a business that was variable and certain contracts collapsed etc I got out in time and was able to recover thanks to a DDF member

I used that knowledge to help my brother as well pay his cards to zero

Don't think of your recourses on 50k of cc debt. Don't ever go there.

Better to raise money in shul or door to door than to have 50k in high interest cc debt

[DaasTora]

I didn't lend out my cards, I just built a business that was variable

Just the other day a friend of mine was asking me how apr works. Is it 23 percent monthly or annually…
I literally got emotional and started yelling “don’t do that “. He started up a business on ink cards and the 12 months are coming to an end…….

[chbochur]

Just the other day a friend of mine was asking me how apr works. Is it 23 percent monthly or annually…
I literally got emotional and started yelling “don’t do that “. He started up a business on ink cards and the 12 months are coming to an end…….

Tell him to apply for a new ink and move the existing credit line to the new card and start the 12 months again.
(I know I over simplified it. Pm for more info)