Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others (Read 1036375 times)

Drago · « **Reply #60 on:** January 02, 2014, 05:28:57 PM »

Quote from: shmuelb on January 02, 2014, 05:23:22 PM

Sorry, I did not get your point, pun intended. But can you relate?

He could re-explain, but it still won't come out in English

rots5 · « **Reply #61 on:** January 02, 2014, 05:30:03 PM »

Quote from: shmuelb on January 02, 2014, 05:23:22 PM

Sorry, I did not get your point, pun intended. But can you relate?

basically when ur swiping your cc that is unrelated to the loan you are giving this so called friend. the loan your giving to your friend is more like a gemach loan where you dont plan on collecting any interest. if there is anything added that you are collecting bec of the loan you gave then the ganav wouldnt have to pay you back, bec its part of the investment.

points on the other hand is not a direct additive due to the loan you gave him. from what i understood from the rav. since the points come along as swiping your card, its not really considered part of the loan.

skyguy918 · « **Reply #62 on:** January 02, 2014, 07:23:49 PM »

Quote from: rots5 on January 02, 2014, 05:30:03 PM

basically when ur swiping your cc that is unrelated to the loan you are giving this so called friend. the loan your giving to your friend is more like a gemach loan where you dont plan on collecting any interest. if there is anything added that you are collecting bec of the loan you gave then the ganav wouldnt have to pay you back, bec its part of the investment.

points on the other hand is not a direct additive due to the loan you gave him. from what i understood from the rav. since the points come along as swiping your card, its not really considered part of the loan.

Don't know if all poskim agree to the actual psak, but if you're paskening that the points aren't a problem, I like Ergel's answer (Lo asrah Torah ela ribbis hbaah miloveh lamalveh) much better - unless you're trying to say the same thing in a more lengthy and confusing way.

txtmax4 · « **Reply #63 on:** January 03, 2014, 12:18:01 AM »

Quote from: Drago on January 02, 2014, 04:31:15 AM

+100

But it'll be really difficult to moderate w/o smearing people's names.

You want to smear their names if they're ruining other people's lives..

txtmax4 · « **Reply #64 on:** January 03, 2014, 12:24:23 AM »

Quote from: Achas Veachas on January 02, 2014, 12:18:49 PM

Charging the interest would be clear Ribbis IINM

Not if a heter iska is signed.

SamKey · « **Reply #65 on:** January 03, 2014, 01:25:25 AM »

Quote from: CountValentine on January 02, 2014, 03:40:33 AM

+Not A Number Big Enough For Speaking Out.

knowing you it would be near impossible to get a phone number out of you, heck I saw you trying to block my view so I shouldn't get your license plate number

Drago · « **Reply #66 on:** January 03, 2014, 06:04:06 AM »

Quote from: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 12:18:01 AM

You want to smear their names if they're ruining other people's lives..

Of course.
I intended to write w/o smearing non-guilty ppl.
For example, if I had a beef w/ s/o, I'd make up a story so his name would go on the list. The stories would have to be vetted. Otherwise, you'd have slander legal issues.

MosheP · « **Reply #67 on:** January 03, 2014, 06:59:55 AM »

Wouldn't you be able to dispute say a $10,000 charge made to your "friends" vendor/supplier if he didnt come up with the money?

Threat if this alone should make him paying you a priority... relationships are everything. If I had a payment disputed I would never deal with that customer again.

how · « **Reply #68 on:** January 03, 2014, 07:04:51 AM »

Quote from: MosheP on January 03, 2014, 06:59:55 AM

Wouldn't you be able to dispute say a $10,000 charge made to your "friends" vendor/supplier if he didnt come up with the money?

Threat if this alone should make him paying you a priority... relationships are everything. If I had a payment disputed I would never deal with that customer again.

See the ethics thread

skyguy918 · « **Reply #69 on:** January 03, 2014, 08:26:27 AM »

Quote from: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 12:24:23 AM

Not if a heter iska is signed.

Something tells me neither you're not going to find too many of the 'borrowers' interested in that arrangement. Better off staying away entirely as a borrower than getting into heter iska. Remember, the people getting scammed are having the principle repayment withheld from them. You think they're going to be able to extract interest from the borrower?

Dr Moose · « **Reply #70 on:** January 03, 2014, 08:31:57 AM »

I'm assuming we're talking about a case that he just doesn't have the money. Not that he intentionally scammed you.

Ergel · « **Reply #71 on:** January 03, 2014, 08:45:13 AM »

Quote from: txtmax4 on January 03, 2014, 12:24:23 AM

Not if a heter iska is signed.

-1 you're charging him in a heter iska has nothing to do if he made or didn't make money or you were charged interest or not. The way a heter iska is structured is that you are setting up a chatzi milveh chatzi pikadon which would mean you split profits and losses equally. However you don't want exposure to losses so you agree that he must swear (or some other formulation which he's unlikely to fulfill) how much was gained loss. If he is unable to do that then you come up with an expected amount to be gained, agree to split the profits (say expected gain is 20%, and you take 10%).
Will make no difference if you were charged interest. Even if you sign a heter iska you can't charge the interest

MosheP · « **Reply #72 on:** January 03, 2014, 08:45:26 AM »

-1

As soon as your "friend" decided not to repay you, it's a stolen credit card. The vendor will refund you and your "friend" will figure out how to repay them, or risk ruining the relationship and/or get sued.

Ergel · « **Reply #73 on:** January 03, 2014, 08:46:34 AM »

Quote from: MosheP on January 03, 2014, 08:45:26 AM

-1

As soon as your "friend" decided not to repay you, it's a stolen credit card. The vendor will refund you and your "friend" will figure out how to repay them, or risk ruining the relationship and/or get sued.

-1 you agreed to the charge. He didn't steal your card

skyguy918 · « **Reply #74 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:16:18 AM »

Quote from: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 08:45:13 AM

-1 you're charging him in a heter iska has nothing to do if he made or didn't make money or you were charged interest or not. The way a heter iska is structured is that you are setting up a chatzi milveh chatzi pikadon which would mean you split profits and losses equally. However you don't want exposure to losses so you agree that he must swear (or some other formulation which he's unlikely to fulfill) how much was gained loss. If he is unable to do that then you come up with an expected amount to be gained, agree to split the profits (say expected gain is 20%, and you take 10%).
Will make no difference if you were charged interest. Even if you sign a heter iska you can't charge the interest

If you were to set up a heter iska in this situation, it would be logical to structure it such that the agreement to replicate an interest bearing loan via the iska and its attendant details follows the same rules as the credit card does. Again, it seems to me that a complex heter iska setup is well beyond the scope of complexity in any of these swipe borrowing schemes, so it's not really relevant. But if for some reason you wanted to, you could definitely set up a heter iska to cover yourself from the potential charges, fees, etc. that you might incur on the cc.

meshugener · « **Reply #75 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:21:27 AM »

I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k

Ergel · « **Reply #76 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:22:10 AM »

Quote from: skyguy918 on January 03, 2014, 09:16:18 AM

If you were to set up a heter iska in this situation, it would be logical to structure it such that the agreement to replicate an interest bearing loan via the iska and its attendant details follows the same rules as the credit card does. Again, it seems to me that a complex heter iska setup is well beyond the scope of complexity in any of these swipe borrowing schemes, so it's not really relevant. But if for some reason you wanted to, you could definitely set up a heter iska to cover yourself from the potential charges, fees, etc. that you might incur on the cc.

-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money

Ergel · « **Reply #77 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:24:26 AM »

Quote from: meshugener on January 03, 2014, 09:21:27 AM

I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k

And what if they had called you to verify the charge and you agreed.
What if they ask you if you authorized him to make the charge? What happens if you lie and say no and then they deal with him directly and he proves you agreed to the charge? Losing 100k is bad. Facing criminal charges is worse

meshugener · « **Reply #78 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM »

of course I would only do it if he doesn't have any email to prove that I authorized him to use the card.

skyguy918 · « **Reply #79 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:36:41 AM »

Quote from: Ergel on January 03, 2014, 09:22:10 AM

-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money

First of all, I never wrote anything about covering yourself from losing the principle. Heter iska was introduced to the conversation as a way to pass on any interest charges on the cc to the final borrower, which would certainly be asur without a heter iska. In fact, I pointed out that if you can't get the guy to pay you the principle, you're not likely going to get him to pay interest charges.

Second of all, while you can't set up a guarantee of your original loan, you can make it very difficult for the 'borrower' to halachically (very important caveat) not have to pay you the principle. This would only be necessary in the first place because of the investment structure that the heter iska creates. Without it the borrower would be 100% liable to you for the principle only in beis din (assuming you can prove that the charge was for him).

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Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others (Read 1036375 times)