Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 99064 times)

Offline meshugener

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2014, 09:21:27 AM »
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
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Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2014, 09:22:10 AM »
If you were to set up a heter iska in this situation, it would be logical to structure it such that the agreement to replicate an interest bearing loan via the iska and its attendant details follows the same rules as the credit card does. Again, it seems to me that a complex heter iska setup is well beyond the scope of complexity in any of these swipe borrowing schemes, so it's not really relevant. But if for some reason you wanted to, you could definitely set up a heter iska to cover yourself from the potential charges, fees, etc. that you might incur on the cc.
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money
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Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2014, 09:24:26 AM »
I would call up the bank notifying them that someone stole my credit card and charged $100k
And what if they had called you to verify the charge and you agreed.
What if they ask you if you authorized him to make the charge? What happens if you lie and say no and then they deal with him directly and he proves you agreed to the charge? Losing 100k is bad. Facing criminal charges is worse
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Offline meshugener

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM »
of course I would only do it if he doesn't have any email to prove that I authorized him to use the card.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2014, 09:36:41 AM »
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your entire loss only if you lose money
First of all, I never wrote anything about covering yourself from losing the principle. Heter iska was introduced to the conversation as a way to pass on any interest charges on the cc to the final borrower, which would certainly be asur without a heter iska. In fact, I pointed out that if you can't get the guy to pay you the principle, you're not likely going to get him to pay interest charges.

Second of all, while you can't set up a guarantee of your original loan, you can make it very difficult for the 'borrower' to halachically (very important caveat) not have to pay you the principle. This would only be necessary in the first place because of the investment structure that the heter iska creates. Without it the borrower would be 100% liable to you for the principle only in beis din (assuming you can prove that the charge was for him).

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2014, 09:39:09 AM »
-1. You cannot set it up so that he covers your interest charges only if you are charged them
FTFM
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Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2014, 09:42:43 AM »
FTFM
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2014, 09:53:52 AM »
It wouldn't be worded that way, but of course you can. The same conditions that cause an interest charge can be set up as the conditions of your portion of the return on investment.
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
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Online skyguy918

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2014, 10:07:01 AM »
But not dependent on whether or not you were charged interest. You can agree that he will pay you irrelevant of if you are charged interest (but he will never agree)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these swiping agreements work (as I stated with bewilderment earlier in this thread), but why wouldn't he agree? You only get charged interest if you carry a balance from month to month. Are they saying at the time of the agreement that they won't pay back for months? Then it's clear that they're just disguising a longer term interest free loan as a 'borrowing a credit car'. It makes no sense.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2014, 10:08:00 AM »
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2014, 10:16:43 AM »
No. He expects to pay before interest is charged.
And he can avoid paying anything other than the principle to you via the heter iska if he pays on time as well. Think of it as setting up the return on investment in the heter iska as a dividend. If you don't have any ownership stake on the date of the dividend you don't receive the dividend. If he pays off the principle 'early' the 'debt' is paid and the 'investment partnership' is dissolved.

Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »
I hear. I'd ask a rav. Sounds off to me
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Offline txtmax4

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2014, 11:13:50 AM »
This thread is going way OT.
Just to answer what someone said about charging interest being clear ribbis.
I know of such a story where a very respected LOR arranged a heter iska where the gains of the lender on top of the original loan were "כל הוצאות הבאנק", IIRC that even included the CC annual fees and late payment fees (I can try and find out) and, of course, the bank's interest.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2014, 11:15:26 AM »
And they split them or he paid completely? Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
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Offline txtmax4

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2014, 11:18:33 AM »
And they split them or he paid completely?
Not sure what you mean by this.
Can you find out exactly how the iska was formulated?
I think the LOR took it from a sefer where there are several types of heterei iska, he chose the one that was fit for this case, I don't think he wrote his own nusach, remind me after Shabbos and I can try to find out.
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